February 3, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Play Parties". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
* jen{SE} will be back getting wine refill
<BernieRoehl> Play parties come in a variety of forms, ranging from big fetish nights, to private but still large-scale events such as KNaNO, DAL and Dungeon Werx, to small partes in peoples' homes
<BernieRoehl> Tonight we'll be discussing the different styles of party, how to organize them, what to expect when you attend, and anything else that relates to the topic
<Nitshill> A very timely discuission
<BernieRoehl> So, anyone have any opening thoughts?
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
<Brigg> I recall the first ever one I went to .. and I had the good fortune to do some online research re: ettiquette
<yummy> can someone tell me the difference between a play party and a fet night
<Brigg> It was crucial, as it turned out,
<aelya> evening
<shadoe{S}> am i still here?
<Brigg> I believe a fet night is a more public organized 'event' with demo's and thelike .. a play party is more a lower key gathering .. yes/no?
<BernieRoehl> The basic difference is that fetish nights are open to the public -- you can just show up, pay an admission, and walk in.
<S_W> in my view - a play party is a SM event where the emphasis is on play involving members of the SM commmunity
<BernieRoehl> Play parties have a guest list -- if you're not on it, you can't attend
<Brigg> as in not so much demop's but rather ... just ... enjoyment of freids / invitees .. and their respective O/others
<S_W> a fet night may have that on the menu - but it is also for those who are not involved in public play and simply want to dress up"
<MrScotdom> I wrote last Year about the risk factor to our vanilla exastense attending play parties... and was met with much diversionary debate... now 6 months later places in the US are being subject to attack from "politically correct organisations"... I attended Miss Fet Night to dispell rumours that I was not able to attend one event... it is a difficult scenario...
<Brigg> nod
<BernieRoehl> So etiquette was important at the first event you went to, Brigg?
<shadoe{S}> hmmmm
<shadoe{S}> trying again
<S_W> by that definition - I think KKBB and Miss Fet night are playparties; Reverb and ISM are "fet nights"
<Brigg> Absoulkutely ...
<BernieRoehl> Reverb and ISM are fet nights, as is the Limelight. I think KKBB/Mississauga are also fet nights
<jen{SE}> i think of them all as "fet nights", i look at private parties as "play" parties
<BernieRoehl> Can you tell us more about that, Brigg?
<lil_kitten> Some people have more to lose than others in being *exposed* - You take a risk by being active in the community (like attending play parties). If you can't afford the risk, then it's a personal choice not to attend.
<sraana{KQ}> S_W> i don't really see the difference between them ... i'd say that those you've mentioned are fets... and Werx is a play party
<MrScotdom> It was an interesting and enjoyable night out. I think the heros are the people who organise the events at little financial reward to themselves.... the colours... equipment etc... it was quite a show... I feel our difficulties are with the vanilla world and our acceptance as is always the ase.
<Brigg> Fiorstly .. I was half terrrifies with not knowing just what I was wlaking into .. but it also gave Me the ability to handle Myself in an appropriate manner .. knowing when tio say or ask somethin g .. knowing where NOT to walkinto nor participate in ...
* BernieRoehl nods
<jen{SE}> i have been disappointed by the "fallout" of public play parties , where after the party ppl take it upon themselves to critize play or scenes
<BernieRoehl> There are some basic rules of etiquette, true -- things like not wandering too close to scenes in progress
<MrScotdom> Despite my concerns... after attending the Miss Fet Night I was impressed at the level of professionalism involved in the scening... great are was taken to ensure a persons safety.
* sraana{KQ} agrees with jen{SE}
<BernieRoehl> There's actually a page on the EhBC site that has a "Fetiquette White Paper"
<Brigg> It was also something that fgave ME a heads up as to what to expect .. ie: there may be something fuynny said between those 'inscene' but that did not give Me latitude to join in .. and also that there may be soem rather ups4etting things that may hit *ME* as off, but foer those involved are just FINE ... as such ... what to sdo .. whom to seek out .. quietly ... and the like .. and then the allowances for giving those involved the quie
<MrScotdom> I also felt it quite a moving experience that persons were willing to expose the acceptable amount of flesh and felt comfortable that those watching were trusted... quite an intimate environment...
<Brigg> recognizing the absolute rights of those involved inthe 'scene' as it were ...
<S_W> Fallout? please elaboarate jen{SE}
<lil_kitten> Some people are comfortable with being exposed
<shadoe{S}> i read that Bernie.. before i went to my first play party.. i thought it behooved me to know the 'way things ideally should be"
<jen{SE}> posts condeming a scene, for style of play
<BernieRoehl> Yes, that's true ScotDom -- there's an element of intimacy and trust in public play, letting virtual strangers watch a scene
<BernieRoehl> I hope it was helpful, shadoe{S}
<MrScotdom> I am not a necessary advocate of the public play scene... but feel the safety factor is far more enhanced at such an event as opposed to a private gathering of say 8 to 10 people. I have been to those and feel that there is a far greater chance of someone going into the cupboard and having a wee drink...
<shadoe{S}> it was actually.. very much so.. it helped shed light on an otherwise totally unknown entity
<S_W> I would think a *post* is a necessarily rare thing - though crticism (and more often - admiration) is one of the useful elements of a public scene
<shadoe{S}> gave me a good idea of how to conduct myself while i viewed for the first time an environment i didn't know
<S_W> in many ways - public play is one of the best instruction tools we have available to us
<BernieRoehl> That's good -- I think a lot of people go to their first events with a certain amount of trepidation and uncertainty, so if we can clear some of that away it'll be easier for them
<jen{SE}> still remembers her first public play party was scared silly
<BernieRoehl> Is there anyone here who's never been to a fet night or play party?
<MrScotdom> Something I had never thought of was the openness of someone making their privacy (except below the belt) available for all to see... was quite a trusting and grateful experience for me...
* BernieRoehl smiles at jen, who has come a long way since then
* sraana{KQ} learned about fetiquette from trusted friends who introduced her to the BDSM scene
<shadoe{S}> and as someone just quoted to me " a fet night is open to any and all to attend (for the most part).. a play party is usually a group of friends only.. just another definition to think about
<jen{SE}> *smiles* @ BernieRoehl who i met at my second play party
<BernieRoehl> Has anyone had any memborable experiences at events they've attended?
<MrScotdom> I am curious as to the "qualifications" deemed appropriate for DM's... and how they know when a scene is bordering on dangerous for the recipient.
* sraana{KQ} would rather attend a private party than public...
<BernieRoehl> Good question, MrScotdom. We're having a DM workshop in February, in order to share some knowledge in that area.
<shadoe{S}> me too sraana.. it's easier to 'let go' sometimes..
<^^zaR^^> perhaps when the Dom passes out from excitement and leaves the poor sub hanging?
* shadoe{S} smooches zar
* BernieRoehl chuckles at zaR
<Brigg> I think the DM side of things is dependant upon the event .. if it is a private play party, the house owner is usually the one that set s out the ground rules and th elike .t hey may bring in other more experienced persons if they so choose ... or even less experienced onwes .. but honestly .. it *IS* THEIR house!
<^^zaR^^> ;)
<MrScotdom> My first appearance at Miss Fet Night... there was a guy using a single tail.... and he was so accurate it was astonishing.... he tied his subbie to the cross with ribbons... and could unfurrel them one by one... amazing work of artistry and accuracy.
<jen{SE}> *lol*, remembers my first event with SE.... that was the first time i swore at Him during a scene,thought i was dead... but a friend said say Sir quick.. I*lol*
* S_W for all the "Scariness" of a first public play party (and I appreciate the feeling), the "invitation to witness intimacy" as Scotdom puts it at a priavate play party in someon's home may go far deeper still
<BernieRoehl> Certainly at a private party, the host gets to set the rulels
<rhiannon{KO}> i think it also depends on if the DM is a fem sub, or a Dom...
<S_W> <sorry on the / me >
<BernieRoehl> True, rhiannon{KO} -- though it really shouldn't matter, it often seems to, which is unfortunate
<MrScotdom> I have been to many private parties and feel the temptation for people who dont have to go home... is too rich not to reach for a wee dram... the minute that happens the profile changes...
<sraana{KQ}> i was once invited to help at a fet night... and was told that i could not be DM as i was sub...
<^^zaR^^> thats a personal choice for the host and the participants that would have been set out before hand IMHO
<Father_Max> not that they cant drink at kkbb
<jen{SE}> private parties are usually more intimate, everyone knows everyone and the play reflects that
<Nitshill> I have hosted a couple of Private parties and also attended them, I have not seen anyone drunk or out of control with anything
<BernieRoehl> That's surprising, sraana{KQ} -- I've been to many events where female subs are DM's
<MrScotdom> A public event in my opinion is far safer as it has a far greater number of eyes on the scene than a party of 10 in a basement in Hamilton... or wherever.
<shadoe{S}> and there's no comments on the scene afterward as a general rule
<^^zaR^^> i disagree MrScotdom
<yummy> sometimes a femsub being a DM... they can be even more so.. intimidating then anyone might think they possibly can, as they know what it is like to be swatted etc..
<dalian> i know I'd feel alot less inhibition at a pvt party than I would at a public one
<sraana{KQ}> i declined to help given those restrictions
<xxendlessdesirexx> *perk* @ fem DM's
<jen{SE}> high fives shadoe{S}
<shadoe{S}> i disagree Scotdom, as well...
<shadoe{S}> i've actually felt safter at private parties
<jen{SE}> me too MrScotdom, i have never seen anyone out of control at a private party
<^^zaR^^> i know the participants at a private party, i may not know all the ones at a public event
<MrScotdom> Most of the private events I have attended have had female subbies as DM's... their intuition is incredible and a worthwhile adversary to those that ae restrained and on the receiving end of a flogger...
<BernieRoehl> There are risks and benefits both ways, and a lot depends on the mix of people. For example, some people would feel safer with 10 close friends at a private event, than at a large event where most people are strangers
<sraana{KQ}> i'd love to chance to attend a private party to better compare the difference...
<shadoe{S}> exactly Bernie
<EchoesII> *searching fore clarity,, would t' dssg hamilton be considered "private",,, opposed to kkbb being "public",,, or is t' "private" a " P/persons house ????,,,
<^^zaR^^> private being at home
<BernieRoehl> Yes, EchoesII
<shadoe{S}> and at a private party.. there's a better chance of saying to someone.."hey back off".. but then again.. it's generally not necessary..
<Nitshill> Private is in a Private Residence
<BernieRoehl> There are basically three categories -- fetish night (open to the public), play party (guest list), and private party (usually held in someone's home)
<yummy> forget DM's i really prefer having friends that I would trust with my life than a stranger I do not know be it a public or private event
<jen{SE}> if you could design the perfect party what would it look like?
* jen{SE} has never found a DM to be a problem
<MrScotdom> The big events are so well advertised and their sheer existence is treading on thin ice with the status quo, vanilla, and regulations... I admire those that work hard to make a public event work... they are taking a good part of responsibility.
<rhiannon{KO}> i don't think there is such a thing jen{SE}..
<jen{SE}> spectators yes,, DM's no, for most part they are invisible til needed
<yummy> jen not often enough
<yummy> have had them in my face too many times
<lil_kitten> The big events are pretty tame though
<jen{SE}> ohh, mmm, i have been lucky i guess
<rhiannon{KO}> but maybe there was a reason they were in your face yummy..
<lil_kitten> So what if the cops show up to those!? I'm sure they have - they look around and then leave
<yummy> not really rhiannon .. was powerplays
<jen{SE}> *lol*, mmm, maybe because SE is usually holding a single tail *grins*
<MistressSarcastica> The perfect party for me has only one rule: clean up your own mess.
<MrScotdom> I agree yummy.... how is a stranger going to know your limits and outward flinches and reactions.... strangers work by the book and surface info... but thats all they have to work with.
<^^zaR^^> i think someone who knows your style of scene may be more acceptable to not interupting untill needed, than someone who doesnt know you from adam
<rhiannon{KO}> but maybe in the DM's eyes, they saw something that was concerning.
<sraana{KQ}> i would think a problem with the private events is that the space would be smaller thus limiting the type of play and number of people
<jen{SE}> The cops actually are the security at many US events such as BlackRose
<S_W> I'm not perfect MrScotdom, but I have not yet had a scene go wrong I DM
<rhiannon{KO}> MrScotdom, a DM does not call a stop to someones limits. that is not what they are there for..
<MrScotdom> rhiannon, better to be suspicious than sorry.
<jen{SE}> *lol*, most private home parties i have been too have a bigger play space than the public ones..
<rhiannon{KO}> they are there to make sure it is "safe" and by the book....
<shadoe{S}> that's true jen
* rhiannon{KO} agrees with that too jen..;)
<S_W> 'd...reading outward signss of distress is something a DM (and any Dom/me) becomes accustomed to
<jen{SE}> :-)
* BernieRoehl wonders where people get houses that big! :-)
<lil_kitten> I think that if the main concern for not attending any public/semi-private event is the cops, then it's a little too much paranoia over an event with a very small probability of occurring
<MrScotdom> Wow jen... your friends must have a heck of a size of a basement.... hahaha
<que`sarah> And there's nothing to keep you from informing the DMs about your style of play in advance...
<jen{SE}> ok, delicate subject... rules....
<^^zaR^^> or attics
<^^zaR^^> grin
<jen{SE}> where and when do they stop....
<kneels> i have done that que`sarah....i get a little loud
<rhiannon{KO}> that is sooooo true que`sarah...
<shadoe{S}> smarty pants Bernie knows we live in a pocket house.. but move the furniture.... and suddenly we arent getting anything or anybody on the backswing!
<shadoe{S}> btw.. where's that sexy sarah?
<jen{SE}> they appear to me to be getting out of control with the can't this, can't that, don't squick the newbie,,,,
<yummy> hmm kneels... who told you .. that you get a "little loud"
* BernieRoehl smiles
<MrScotdom> I dont think the DM's can cater to each individuals style of play... their heads are filled to capacity as it is watching for the fundemental difficulties...
<BernieRoehl> That sexy sarah is about two feet to my right at the moment, shadoe{S} :-)
* sraana{KQ} thinks that the don't squick the newbie thing is overdone
<jen{SE}> *llol*, informing the DM's before usually generates YOU CAN't DO THAT... *lol*
<^^zaR^^> grins at jen
* BernieRoehl smiles at kneels being a "little" loud :-)
* shadoe{S} wiggles..
<rhiannon{KO}> but its not just about newbies jen....as a DM myself, i am shocked at the amount of things that go on "behind" the scenes...not the playing but the people watching and pushing the envelopes.....testing to see how much they can get away with.
<shadoe{S}> oooooo yummy sexy sarah!
<kneels> shrugs at yummy....i dont know what made them think that.....but i could see Max and i being disturbing to those that dont know we have been together a long time and that my arousal comes from being pushed hard
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
* jen{SE} has never been accused of being quiet...
<S_W> I disagree MrScotdom; I think a DM can judge pretty quickly the epxerience level of those involved. Does not make a DM a mind reader - but you can tell pretty quickly - out of a group of three or four couples - who requires the most attention
<^^zaR^^> i think a DM before agreeing to be a DM should know what level of scenes might occur,,
<BernieRoehl> It's generally a good idea to forewarn the DM's if a scene is going to be unusual in some way, particularly if it looks non-consensual to a casual observer
<shadoe{S}> right.. and sometimes the DM's play favourites and stop scenes that have the same elements as the exact same scene beforehand
<^^zaR^^> i wouldnt DM a needles party
<jen{SE}> SE and i have never been stopped by a DM, we play hard but i think as S_W says, the DM's recogize the familiarity between us
<lil_kitten> It's not the DM's job to be the one with the primary responsibility concerning the scene. That is up to the Top in the scene; to know his/her partner's limits and reactions. DMs are there as more of an insurance, especially for the unforseen.
<rhiannon{KO}> yes jen{SE}, that is true..
<S_W> I agree zar - if there si something "special" involved or someting out of the order ("I want ot cry in this scene") a DM should be told
<MrScotdom> I think ergardless of what we wish to think that the freight train of vanilla comprehension is forever our intrinsic enemy. We can feel safe today but around the corner is another happy legislation that is borne through the tenure of which local government official is voted into power. Look at the problems in the US right now... it not only can happen here... sooner or later it will...
<lil_kitten> like falling out of your restraints...
<rhiannon{KO}> but if someone does not know your kind of play, will they let it go on???
<lil_kitten> what's the harm in asking for a colour if that's the case, rhiannon{KO} ?
<jen{SE}> *lol*, we were almost stopped at Black Rose of all places, so no rhiannon{KO} if someone does not know us they may want to step in.
<yummy> kills the mood lil_kitten
* rhiannon{KO} smiles at jen, whom by the way i "love" to watch, both private and non private parties.
<jen{SE}> and we have learned to tame the play down for public as the rules will not allow us to play the way we would like
<lil_kitten> then - if you are going to play hard and don't want to be asked for a colour, tell the DM ahead of time that you play hard/loud
* jen{SE} same here sis :-)))
<kneels> well Max and i had a DM watch us VERY closely one time when we played at KKBB the first time....and i was in agony and letting everyone know it..but i was fine....and to give him credit...he just kept watching closely
<rhiannon{KO}> great idea lil_kitten, but not all do that..
<BernieRoehl> It depends, rhiannon{KO} -- I've DM'ed a number of times, and if a submissve says to me (before the scene) "I tend to scream really, really loud" then I won't worry about it when it happens
<shadoe{S}> by who's standards though? if you aren't having a cardiac arrest.. not trying to get away from the dominant in an obvious manner.. then who's to say what's right time to stop the scene?
<BernieRoehl> What sort of rules do people find pose a problem for them at events?
<lil_kitten> lol - then it's there fault if a concerned DM who was not informed "kills the mood"
<yummy> the edgeplay rule
<^^zaR^^> the "no laughing or looking like you are enjoying yourself' rule
<rhiannon{KO}> but BernieRoehl what about the others around that person that is screaming?
<yummy> without defining what edgeplay is
<jen{SE}> and that is where i have my issues, at KKBB we followed the rules but two indivuals thougth it was there right to critize after the fact. neither apporached us at the time, but waitef for the saftety of a mailing list
* sraana{KQ} chuckles and says "no sex" rules...
<lil_kitten> stop is not the same as check in *shrug*
<kneels> well yes kitten...i had forgotten to tell the DM i am a little loud.....and Max chose that night to push me to hell
* BernieRoehl smiles at zaR
* lil_kitten remembers that, kneels lol
* jen{SE} knows that rhiannon{KO} can scream pretty good and curse too *eg*
<S_W> the answer to that shadoe{S} is the same as in every SSC scene - primarily the bottom' responsibility; secondarily the Top's; with a DM as a last resort
<BernieRoehl> Good point, rhiannon{KO}
<shadoe{S}> ooo pulllleeeze.... most people are responsible adults.. i dare say most of the time the DM's aren't needed for more than getting the wankers away from the scening couple.
<MrScotdom> I think a DM has a more difficult job description that we all imagine.
<rhiannon{KO}> what happens if you ok the screaming scene at the begining, but then 1/2 way through it gets out of hand, and the people on the floor under the party start to complain..lol
* sraana{KQ} agrees with shadoe{S}
<jen{SE}> agrees 100% with shadoe{S}
* lil_kitten agrees with shadoe{S}
<MrScotdom> wanker..... hahhahaahaha.....
<kneels> then they have to step in rhiannon{KO}, or there will be NO play for anyone
<yummy> and what if someones screaming is only aiding someone elses scene
<lil_kitten> I think it would be very VERY rare that one would feel the need to interrupt a scene, still just a possibility
<shadoe{S}> exactly S_W.. the Dm should be a last resort thing
<rhiannon{KO}> or inturuping it to the point were the sub is pulled out of her space??
<yummy> sometimes someone elses screams can work on a submissives mind as well as what is being done to them by the dominant
<MrScotdom> But what if the DM does not recognise that He/she is the last resort?
<kneels> i dont hear anyone else's screams
<deava> :)
<MrScotdom> ...and lets their ego react for them?
<BernieRoehl> When people choose to play in a public venue, I think they need to accept that there will be sound from other scenes -- it comes with the territory, so to speak
<S_W> headspace is a difficult issue for a DM to deal with. Inevitably, if a DM acts, head space can be screwed up pretty fast
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, the screams don't bother me, but someone trying to sell their floggers two inches from my scene is a bit distracting... *lol*
<MrScotdom> Wrecks the whole scene...
* ^^zaR^^ would find a sub laying stoicly in a heap with no response to a flogger more concerning than someone struggling or screaming,, and i would probably as a DM move over closer to check on her condition, but not by saying to her,, Stop the scene, i think shes dead
<lil_kitten> well, hopefully nights choose their DMs wisely
<S_W> I try to whisper in the Dom's ear - i I have a comment - in a way so that the sub does not see me or - at the least - hear me
<rhiannon{KO}> very true jen{SE}..LOL
<kneels> good approach S_W
<MrScotdom> Good point S_W... tackle the subject not the subjectee
<jen{SE}> *lol* awlful tempting to grab one of the floggers and test on the seller... *eg*
<lil_kitten> heck, if you don't want to be monitored in any way - play at home
<BernieRoehl> Certainly the DM should approach the Dom if they have any concerns, not the sub (unless there's a serious, serious problem)
<`abi> is it appropriate to request a specific DM at a fetnight?
* sraana{KQ} chuckles and agrees with jen{SE}
<rhiannon{KO}> good point lil_kitten..
<kneels> happens to enjoy watching Ed and jen and the list critizisers can kiss my ass :)
<jen{SE}> *smiles* @ S_W remembers His help at the Werks
<Brigg> I think the major thing for a DM and a questionable pair is that if One knows they are 'Heavy" or are typically "more than usual" to let the DM know in advance
<lil_kitten> lol
<MrScotdom> I saw one DM at Miss Fet doing just that... He was careful to speak into the ear of the DOM when He was furthest away from His sub
<jen{SE}> *lol* @ kneels
* BernieRoehl is somewhat surprised that people actually post critiques of other peoples' scenes
<Father_Max> or bite your bird
<kneels> well its true..i think i drool too :)
<xxendlessdesirexx> eat the crow.
* jen{SE} is not surprised disappointed but not surprised
<shadoe{S}> it think it's pretty rude Bernie
<kneels> well it was damn rude BernieRoehl
<lil_kitten> now, that I don't agree with - you don't scene publically to invite criticism... yeesh
<MrScotdom> Bringing the subbie down through a misplaced loud vocal outburst takes a while to repair... a voice in the ear of a Dom takes seconds to readjust...
<S_W> I didn't see the scene or the post that is being discussed here - but I can say that discussing other's scenes is not a BAD thing per se. It is instructive; it helps everyone who watches learns something
<kneels> i dont know if you can request a certain dm....they have time slotted and their evening planned i would think.....but i know i do feel more comfortable with some then others
<BernieRoehl> It's difficult enough for a lot of people to play publicly, but to then have to put up with criticism about it... just doesn't seem right to me
<Father_Max> Im just wondering Scotdom you have alot of opinions but have you ever scened at a public event or have you ever DM'd someone that has such vast knowledge would be wonderful to watch
* jen{SE} appologizes i have to leave.. SE calling,, night
<lil_kitten> discussing is something other than critiquong
<kneels> no this post wasnt instructive....or constructive..that would have been alright
<kneels> night jen
<lil_kitten> o = i
<S_W> if it is done rudely - like all things when discussing someone's else's business - people should exercise decorum and restraint
* BernieRoehl notes that he's behind on reading some of the mailing lists, so hasn't seen any comments on peoples' scenes
<MrScotdom> I am not a public player Father Max... but have been involved physically for 8 years.
<xxendlessdesirexx> *chuckles at remembering seeing DA and rt's scene, excellent!*
<Father_Max> thats what i thought, so perhaps you should sit back and learn from those that have
* BernieRoehl also enjoys watching DA and rt
<xxendlessdesirexx> wow that was intense, and greatly enjoyed.
<kneels> they make a great couple...i am glad they have found each other :)
<MrScotdom> I have a brain and cognative common sense Father....
<Father_Max> but no experience, so try and gain some first
<xxendlessdesirexx> (believes they have such an excellent relationship to be communicative with little words*
<Father_Max> you can read a book doenst me you know what to do
<MrScotdom> I watch and listen... and see what others have done that I would copy... or decline.
<BernieRoehl> One of the great things about play parties is that it gives people a chance to watch others play, and to gain some insights into different styles
<que`sarah> I'm wondering if anyone here has had one of their own public scenes interrupted by a DM?
<MrScotdom> I am no novice Father...
<shadoe{S}> yes.. i have sarah
<Father_Max> well we wouldnt know now would we
<Father_Max> why dont you come out and show us how its done
<Brigg> Not by a DM .. have had more experienced Dom's walk into the middle of Mine a couiple of times and note better technique ...
<S_W> If we bring this discussion a bit out of public play and into private play - does over sexuality (ie pentration, gneital torture) bother you? Do you think that this should be discussed before hand - or do you expect this will occur as a "base norm" ?
<MrScotdom> I am not a public player .
<Father_Max> perhas your just a player
<Brigg> Haved also had a few perople who have not had patience and wanted use aof spoace make noises and comments just loud enough for Me to hear lie" Are they *STILL* at iot??"
<lil_kitten> I've had a DM come in to help loosen cuffs that were cutting off my circulation, but it was a welcome and necessary interruption
<^^zaR^^> I would hope that would be discussed as appropriate or not before the play started S_W
<sraana{KQ}> i'd be interested to know if the more intimate things are allowed at private events...
<que`sarah> Hm, Brigg, was that something you invited? Or unsolicited advice?
<`abi> I've had time calls sarah, but they were fairly gracefully executed by the DMs
<S_W> You would expect then - as a norm - that such would not occur zar?
<Brigg> Unsolicited ... but taken for its value ...
<Brigg> I think that perhaps instead of just going in a doing something ... gently catching My attrention from the periphery and lettnig Me know quietly ... that wouuld have been better
<MrScotdom> I have found very few DM's to be experts in caning... so when a 30 year veteran is using a cane on his subbie.... who is the teacher and the DM? the DM or the player? It is a selective scenario.
<shadoe{S}> when we've been interrupted it's been pretty weird.. and not necessary
<lil_kitten> The DM isn't there to teach, MrScotdom
<rhiannon{KO}> How many DM's here had to stop a scene? and what what the reason for stopping it?????
<kneels> i think penetration etc should be discussed before hand for private parties....things might get out of control and people's feelings might get hurt
<^^zaR^^> i would know that at a public event it wouldnt be there, and DM stoppable, at a private (houseparty) if permitted by host permissable, however, if not alowed, a reason to ask the parties to take it to the bedroom if need be
<S_W> I have the answer to that one MrScotdom; the answer needs no interpretation. The DM is the DM
<lil_kitten> if the 30 year veteran is drawing blood with the cane, it's an issue...
<^^zaR^^> lil kitten, what if its a RACK scene, with the particiapants already agreeable?
<^^zaR^^> risk aware, consentutal kink
<MrScotdom> I think that analogy can be overruled by a DM with 5 years experience and a vet with 30. It happens and I know individuals that teach DM's...
<rhiannon{KO}> but is it consentual to those at the party that cannot just leave if they don't want to see or hear it???
<kneels> it would depend on the venue then wouldnt it zar?...the one's running it would have to rule
<lil_kitten> Depends on how far it goes - if the rule is no drawing blood and the Dom does, then he's gone to far - that is the "issue"
<BernieRoehl> At private parties, it's up to the host to set the rules (which can include or exclude sexual activity as he/she sees fit). At fet nights or play parties, we're constrained by the law of the land.
<^^zaR^^> yes kneels, and rhiannon, why couldnt you leave if the scene was disturbing
<xxendlessdesirexx> wonders if other then Red, Yellow and Green , there should be a word created just in case, for any reason, to signal a DM for immediate assistance. perhaps saying red takes to long to learn and define a problem one who isn't wielding equipment would step in quickly.... *just a thought* (curls back up into a ball)
<^^zaR^^> i leave the room when the needles come out
<S_W> well - just so that we are clear MrScotdom; the DM is the DM at any play partty I have been to. IT isn't open to interpretation - overr-uling or anything of the kind
<lil_kitten> most play parties I've been to have a rule that if blood is drawn, the scene ends - so that was my point
<S_W> You don't want to put up with the possible intervention of a DM? Stay home.
<Brigg> k .. this is where *I* have a oproblemn with safe words ...
<lil_kitten> that is why it would then be appropriate for the DM to intervene, regardless of the experience of the players
<Brigg> Do I beolieve in them?
<rhiannon{KO}> because why do i have to leave if i paid?? do i not have any rights...? (iam just stirring the pot, i am not saying i wouldn't watch. lol))
<BernieRoehl> Me too, zaR! :-)
<Brigg> Yes
<MrScotdom> I have seen more discord and ill-educated behaviour at private parties.... I feel a subbie is safer at a public event through proxy.
<Brigg> Do I allow them .. of course.
<Brigg> Do I trust them? Not on your frikkiun LIFE!
<^^zaR^^> i fainted once when in my field of view i saw peircing at a public event
<kneels> but you went there knowing peircing was allowed zar?
<lil_kitten> I must have missed something rhiannon{KO} - why would you have to leave?
<Brigg> I know of a siutuation where a sub was getting flogged and the Master spotted the signs that things were going bad quick .. and stopped .. giot her down .. and only as she collapsed into His arms and was being cxared for did the sdafe woird get used ...
<xxendlessdesirexx> <--had a friend faint while being pierced, the piercing guy went to stop her from falling while the needle was still inbedded in my nipple.... *h*e*l*l*o*....
<Like4u2cum> "Mercy" is a good safeword for DM's to recognize.
<rhiannon{KO}> owchhhhhh
<xxendlessdesirexx> attached to his hand...
<^^zaR^^> sure,, i didnt know it would cause me to faint at the time,, i didnt however jump up and say, you folks are squicking me
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol wake up call indeed
<kneels> xxendlessdesirexx....i think red should end a scene immediatly...i dont think another word is needed...just my opinion
<Brigg> She swears she iused it before .. and mentally .. she may have .. but vervally .. as ALL in attendance voiched for ... she didn;t until well after it would have been too late ...
<^^zaR^^> now i make sure that when i go to the fete, if needles are there, i am facing the other way
<S_W> Red or Mercy are equally as acceptable
<xxendlessdesirexx> it never hurts to add safety kneels
<kneels> good plan zar ....i wouldnt want to squick you
<MrScotdom> I was impressed at Miss Fet with one DOm whos afterare was amazing..... I went up to Him and told him... he was amazing.... looked after the subbie.. put a blanket around her.. it was quite touching.
<S_W> and - as a matter of custom - one should not play with those words privately to have different meanings
<lil_kitten> ah, but some will say mercy in the same context as "no" "stop" "please" - as it is not *their* safe word *shrug*
<shadoe{S}> so what are you saying Briggs? that a Dm should have interfered?
<kneels> true xxendlessdesirexx.....but some subs cant/wont call red..so you have to go by body language as well....Max has stopped a scene before i would...just because i am too far gone to know what is good for me
<BernieRoehl> At most events that have posted rules, the "house safewords" are the colours, and if the Doms don't respond to a safeword, the DM can step in
<^^zaR^^> thats the DOMS job not the DM
<Brigg> no .. that the safeword was not the be all anot the end all ... that the connection between the Dom and sub has to be that tight ... not even the DM would haver spotted anythign before the Dom did .. indeed the Dom caught it a few seconds before anyone else did ... as should be ...
<shadoe{S}> Scotdom.. how do you feel about the aftercare if it isn't with a blanket? what if it's the sub on the floor with his foot on her back?
<MrScotdom> I feel overall that ehe general level of professionalism executed at parties private and public is very high. It is a comforting thought that so much care is premeditated in the care of those on the receiving end.
<^^zaR^^> however, if the DOM ingnores the subs body language or verbal, then the DM steps in
<xxendlessdesirexx> has seen some Doms get carried away and dissreguard the safeword red....
<kneels> agreed kitten....i had to stop using mercy....as in begging for it....when i started public play because to me it isnt a safeword
<shadoe{S}> *nodding at Briggs*.. and most times that's exactly how it is
<lil_kitten> Part of the DM's job is to uphold the house rules - if the rule is say, "Red means stop immediately" and the sub calls red, the Dom doesn't stop, it is the responsibility of the DM to step in and uphold the rules
<S_W> I agree Bernie - But **I** would respond to "mercy"; it's a bit outdated, but I'd treat it as a "red" - that is my point.
<Brigg> I am just saying ... that safe words are not that reliable ..a nd that constant in touch and intensely intertwined comunications are needed ... and that is where the experience of watching .. of learning .. that is what these gatherings offer so much more for ...
<MrScotdom> I am not experienced enough with public play shadow to answer that question.
<lil_kitten> exactly, kneels
<kneels> well then they should be shot xxendlessdesirexx
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol... hand me a gun
<S_W> a Dom who gets "carried away" and ignores a "red" is not a Dom - he is a menace.
<rhiannon{KO}> as a DM i have seen DOMs play with a sub for the very first time, not negotiating anything in advance. is it the DM's job to stop or step into the scene if that sub is screaming or even crying? the DOM doesn't know the sub's limits.
<MistressAnn> i agree S_W
<lil_kitten> uh oh
<^^zaR^^> i like the foot on the back,, it keeps me in place till i am able to get up,, i dont require a blanket, but need to be made to stay still after the scene
* BernieRoehl sighs at the netsplit
<xxendlessdesirexx> been there, tasted menace, almost hid from the lifestyle for life thereafter..
<MrScotdom> S_W - Not only a menace but dangerous.
<Brigg> I honestly could care less if it is "Red" or VOLVO! .. So long as it is a readily reachable word for the sub to draw on when all other faculties are going , going ..or gone.
<kneels> i think you have to rhiannon{KO}
<lil_kitten> hmm.. what about more private play parties?
* EchoesII *indeed*,,, S_W*
<lil_kitten> (limits there and such)
<Brigg> And so long as her/his Other knows it and knows it well.
<Father_Max> good point S_W
<MrScotdom> zar... ineresting aftercare... one that I listen to and have no immediate experience with...
<rhiannon{KO}> but then we find out that she is a cryer, and is pissed off that the scene was stopped. and if we stop her scene becasue of crying, why can't we stop the next couple whom we have no idea who they are, or how they play.??
<BernieRoehl> One of the challenges in being a DM is exactly that -- reading the couple, and knowing what's going on between them
<S_W> I woud intervene to check if crying occurred and I was not previously informed, or otherwise aware. I think most DM's operate by the same code.
<rhiannon{KO}> true BernieRoehl, but it is easier said then done..;)
<MistressSarcastica> que'sarah knows that sometimes aftercare consists of being told "Get your damn aftercare somewhere else." <grin>
<xxendlessdesirexx> can't there be a quick discription submitted, a summary of what a sceneing couple are like given to the DM's prior to the party, like if they submit it with the intentions of playing through e-mail, or even at the beginning at the play party?
<MrScotdom> I think "reading the couple" takes a conservative length of time and is a talent reserved for the psychic! hehehe
<BernieRoehl> I know that if I'm watching a couple who I know have played together for years, I'll be less concerned than if I'm watching a couple who met that night
* que`sarah beams a smile at MistressSarcastica
<kneels> but i think you need to err on the side of caution rhiannon{KO}....and say if it happened to me( i forgot to warn the dm) then it is my own fault....and if if prevents a newbie sub from getting in over her head ...well then i am willing to have my scene interrupted
<rhiannon{KO}> good for you kneels..;) i agree..
<lil_kitten> some parties specifically ask that the DM be told such things - if the players don't tell, like I said earlier - if they are interrupted unwantedly, it's their own fault
<que`sarah> As always, one must trust one's judgement, but in the absence of any other information, better to be safe than sorry.
* BernieRoehl notes that it's almost 10 pm, but we started late so we'll run a little longer
<S_W> I think endless, you can do whatever it is that you want to do and makes the scene more cofortable for you. Ultimately, a DM is there to facilitate your scene - not to be a judge or arbiter unless forced to do so by the House Rules (and common sense).
<kneels> well if Max and i went somewhere we werent known....and played hard...i could see the dm going....oh shit....did these two just meet? is she in over her head?
<xxendlessdesirexx> believes anything informative that can be given to the DM's prior to the scene is safety and a good call
* ^^zaR^^ sticks to house parties so not to squick the newbies
<kneels> well until i started laughing anyway :)
<MrScotdom> I agree endless.
<S_W> I agree with you endless :-)
<xxendlessdesirexx> so why not a quick short, to the point bio submitted?....
<lil_kitten> what if there is some pretty squicky stuff going on at a private party?
<BernieRoehl> Exacty, kneels -- bu if you tell the DM "hi -- we're a very happy loving couple who play really, really, hard" they'll be less likely to be concerned :-)
<xxendlessdesirexx> until DM's get familiar with the common sceneing individuals..
<lil_kitten> weren't you the one that hated needles, zar?
* sraana{KQ} laughs
<Nitshill> welcome back all
<kneels> well i would if we were playing where we werent known
<kneels> cough...loving? happy? MAX?????????
<rhiannon{KO}> one think i would like to say, is that DM's do not get paid, they are there on their own time to help out the venue or people putting on the party, they stop scenes for a reason, or inturupt for a reason, and IF they are inturuping for not reason what so ever, then they should be reported to the Chief DM. DM's should have respect for the players, just like the players should have respect for the DM"s..;)
<^^zaR^^> i enjoy knife play, have watched DM's stop one couple, but had let one prior play with knives,, without cause
<Nitshill> Time for a break
<sraana{KQ}> night A/all
<shadoe{S}> are we back again?
<BernieRoehl> Tell them whatever you need to, kneels :-)
<MrScotdom> DM'ing is an undefined task.. there are no lines drawn in the sand... they are different from couple to couple... in the end the common sensuality of the house rules will win the day... but is it right for everyone????
<^^zaR^^> yes shadoe
<Father_Max> you bet baby
<S_W> I agree rhiannon{KO} - absolutely.
<BernieRoehl> We only have a few minutes left, so I'm going to suggest we move off of the DM topic and onto more general observations
<shadoe{S}> good point rhiannon
<BernieRoehl> For example... what makes a good play party?
<kneels> yes but it isnt an easy job rhiannon{KO}....and i think any player playing publically....has to accept that the DM is there for safety
<rhiannon{KO}> lots of play...*big smile*
<xxendlessdesirexx> <--- if i were a DM i would gladly read a short bio on sceneing couples, as if roles were reversed and i was the one in the scene i would wish for the DM to know everything that could hinder a scene, so that the scene would be most effective to me and others around
<kneels> grins at BernieRoehl.....me getting my ass whipped?
<lil_kitten> MrScotdom - the house rules may not be right for everyone - the point in the most unveiled of terms is "these are the rules, take it or leave it"
* BernieRoehl smiles
<^^zaR^^> a separate play area, a comfort chat area, and a no smoking/smoking area provided, knowing the participants and cleaning up after yourself
<rhiannon{KO}> but sometimes there are too many to get to know xxendlessdesirexx..
<S_W> easy to answrr and hard to define Bernie; "energy" above all. It's fleeting, unquantifiable. It's like "love" - you know it when you have it - but how to define it?
<MistressAnn> as a DM i like when new couples tell me what they are about
<MrScotdom> What makes a good play party??? When all concerned leave with a feeling of integrity and happiness... and nobody gets hurt ... it is something different for everyone...
<rhiannon{KO}> good point S_W..;)
<xxendlessdesirexx> true, but it is always a way that will increase ones personal knowledge of members ect.
<kneels> true S_W.....very true...i tend to feed off of others energy...or the energy in a room
<rhiannon{KO}> but do the DM's have the time to do all that reading and getting to know people xxendlessdesirexx..
<DungeonLord> "what makes a good play party?" The host, room, funiture, the feeling of the room, like minded couples, generally what makes a good vanilla party.
<lil_kitten> It's no good if no one gets hurt :)
<S_W> you can set the stage, you can play with lighting and mood and music and all the rest - in the end some nights are just memorable and its hard to know HOW that happened - but it does, nevertheless
<Father_Max> food ... great food,
<kneels> lol lil_kitten
<rhiannon{KO}> lol@Max..
<kneels> sighs at Max....who let him in here?
<BernieRoehl> Well, we're just about out of time
<BernieRoehl> Any last-minute comments?
<lil_kitten> I think it's important that everyone be informed enough of the goings on of a party that they have a comfortable night
<xxendlessdesirexx> well i am not talking about cramming for an exam here, if one truly cared for the safety of those he/she was watching out for, wouldn't they be at least a little curious as to know what a scene would entail?
<MrScotdom> The beauty in the openness and the trust of those stripped of their shell... is the most honest admonishment of human trust I have experienced.
<^^zaR^^> last thought, know who you are playing with, play with those you are comfortable with and learn just cause its not your kink doesnt make it wrong
<rhiannon{KO}> but xxendlessdesirexx, as long as it is SSC who care?? AND what about the parties like BlackRose. there is no way to read all those bios...
<kneels> just a big thankyou to you BernieRoehl and the others that work to give us a place to play :)
<lil_kitten> exactly rhiannon{KO}
<rhiannon{KO}> good point Zar..;))
<MrScotdom> Overall I feel the scene has good regulation... I am happy and proud to be a member of this community with the intrinsic andsteadfast values it beholds.
<S_W> Yes. Despite some negative experiences - I think play parties are the centrepiece of the scene. I urge any here who have not praticipated in one (or three) to come on out. You won't regret it.
<Brigg> I think that if it were a more intimate (max 30 or so?) gathering, xxendlessdesirexx would be right ... but the scale of which you are lookin gat with literally UNDREDS gathering .. what a HUGE TASK!
<xxendlessdesirexx> base the bio reading on a matter of preferance, i would enjoy reading through bios
<BernieRoehl> My pleasure, kneels -- and I know I can speak for DA, the DSSG folks, and everyone else who does it
<rhiannon{KO}> actully i would too xxendlessdesirexx, but i don't have the time for all that reading..;)
<BernieRoehl> Well, I'm going to close the log file and start processing and uploading it
* S_W chuckles - send yours on over endless :-)
<kneels> hopes to see many of you tommorrow night :)
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to every for joining us tonight and participating in the discussion
<BernieRoehl> See you all at the parties!
<EchoesII> *be well,,, Bernie****