February 1, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion
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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Having a D/s Relationship Outside of a Vanilla Marriage". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<BernieRoehl> So... this topic has come up before. Anyone have any initial thoughts?
<Kirspin> Its a real chore to balance
<Anticipation^> Bernie.....speaking only for myself...I was in a vanilla marriage....and even though I desired some sort of D/s relationship....I chose my wedding vows over that desire....and waited until I was single again...to seek out such a relationship
<Kirspin> It can be exciting and woth the effort jsut the same
<BernieRoehl> That's true, Kirspin
* BernieRoehl nods and smiles at the aptly-named Anticipation
<BernieRoehl> So you weren't tempted to stray at all?
<delyssa> Why would having a D/s relationship outside of a marriage mean that you'd broken wedding vows?
<jewel`{F}> from the submissives part it can be very challenging ballancing the 2, but i do agree with Kirspin it is very much worth the effort
<Anticipation^> no I wasnt.......I tried many times to interest my ex-wife in D/s....and worked hard to save our marriage...but in the end it died anyway...and I felt better of myself for not straying
* BernieRoehl nods
<jewel`{F}> for some having that D/s relationship outside of the marriage may be the saviour of the marriage
<BernieRoehl> In the sense that it provides the missing elements, which might otherwise have led to the marriage's demise?
<Anticipation^> to me delyssa......ANY other relationship....of an intimate nature that D/s ultimately is.....was a breaking of my vows
<Kirspin> In my personal life my present Vanilla is not into any D's at all, so having the desire to play in all honesty it has saved me from going batty!
<delyssa> I guess it depends on what your vows were then, as I don't think of myself as "straying" regardless of how difficult my exploration of this has been.
<shareena> desire to play Kirspin or actually playing?
<Kirspin> I have played with several subs over the last five years
<jewel`{F}> very much so Bernie, it can fulfil needs that are not being met in the marriage, making the person happier over all and able to build on the other areas with in the marriage
<shareena> how do you view it delyssa?
<Kirspin> If one is religious which I am not thenI guess vows are important, I think all religion is a crock/
<Anticipation^> to me....and remember...this works only for me......any time that you go OUTside your marriage......for something that is missing....is straying.....dont get me wrong...I am not condemning those that do...I am just saying...I could not
<delyssa> well, people can write their own vows, and my husband and I were careful to write vows that meant a great deal to us, and that we'd honour throughout our marriage.
<shareena> i don't think you have to be religious to take a vow you took seriously. A vow is nothing more than vowing you will do something.
<MasterGuny> I just can't see letting my partner be with another man and have her serve him
<shareena> It comes down to giving your word, and then you decide if you are going to keep it
<MasterGuny> nor as a Dom can I understand having my sub sleep with another man and obey him on an everyday basis
<Anticipation^> so you wrote into your vows when you got married delyssa....that you could have outside relationships within your marriage?
<delyssa> Not in so many words, no... but we were careful to have our vows reflect our beliefs about love and commitment, and I've honoured that just as my husband has.
<jewel`{F}> we had the word fidelity removed from our vows
<krista-F> you assume that a girl is obeying her husband Master Guny..i have never obeyed my husband and refused to have that word in my wedding vows....
<shareena> as a sub I couldn't imagine my Dom asking me to obey someone else, or sleep with him. It would destroy what we had...for me at least. So I agree with you MasterGuny
<krista-F> i do not obey vanilla men
<Anticipation^> well.....like I said.....I can only view this from my own eyes......and although I truly believe in not looking at other peoples lifestyles thru my ideals.....I personally cant separate my vows to one woman....and reconcile them with the vows I would take to take care of another woman inside a D/s relationship
<shareena> i obey some vanilla men, such as my boss or my father
<krista-F> and i have happily been NOT obeying him for 28 yrs
<MasterGuny> obey in getting his dinner get his groceries cleaning his house etc.... taking care of his sexual needs
<MasterGuny> that is a form of obeying
<krista-F> i am the boss in my job and my father is deceased
<silken^flame> oh gees Guny that goes with any marriage
<krista-F> nope.none of the above...
<krista-F> not mine....
<MasterGuny> thats why I try and tell married subs the pit falls of playing outside a marriage
<jewel`{F}> in my marriage we share all those "chores"
<MasterGuny> it can destroy it very easily
<Anticipation^> now....IF each partner in a marriage....can honestly say that thay accept their partners existance in an outside D/s relationship......with full knowledge and full disclosure.....then more power to your existiing relationships....can everyone who is having such a relationship say so....in fully honesty?...that their vanilla partner knows and supports them in their outside relationship?
<MasterGuny> not for all but for a great deal it is the end of their marriage
<spirited_sassy{CP}> it can
<krista-F> he shops....i bring food home from work and my husband is not itno sex of any kind with anybody
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i have never been in a vanilla marriage so i don't know
<jewel`{F}> i can Kirspin, infact my husband has met my Master, and a number of my friends with in the lifestyle
<jen{SE}> is it not just another form of poly?
<krista-F> that is exactly how it is in my marriage Anticipation^.....anything less would be dishonorable
<Kirspin> I will say the same as my SO does not haqve Sex period, with anyone
<krista-F> and i live with honor...always
<jen{SE}> one partner is vanilla, one is lifestyle if both agree should not be a problem
<delyssa> My husband and my Dom met a few times... and honesty was always my priority.
<krista-F> my husband knows all my lifestyle friends including any people i serve....or scene with for the most part
<Northbound> my marriage started very vanilla and evolved where bdsm became a major part
<silken^flame> my partner knows all who i play with
<Kirspin> Its best to be honest for all concerned even if one meets Vanilla women too
<Anticipation^> then if you all can say that you hide NOTHING from your SO's.....and since I have maintained that its only MY outlook on it....then you all realize that I am not condemning...nor condoning such relationships...merely stating that I could not do it myself......I could not maintain two relationships......if one doesnt address all of MY wishes...OR hers....then I am not in the right relationship....and I should en
<Anticipation^> before seeking out another
<spirited_sassy{CP}> honesty is the best way in all things
<krista-F> well Anticipation^.i admire you for your strength of conviction...but this is not a dress rehersal.and i choose life.....as i wish it to be.not as i dream of it to be
<Anticipation^> I dont think I understand your "dress rehersal" comment.....as I choose life too.....as it fits me....and I
<Anticipation^> I HAVE found that relationship that now suits us.....AFTER I ended my vanilla marriage
<krista-F> well....you believe one should wait...till all circumstances are perfect.....
<MasterGuny> what I find interesting is talking to a married sub and when asked I am to be with no one else but her yet she can be with her husband 24/7 outside of a few hours a week she is able to share with me
<MasterGuny> thats very common
<krista-F> i do not believe in waiting....life ismuch to short
<krista-F> and i have no plans to change my life for a play partner..
<Anticipation^> I believe krista-F....that if you truly have found the one person as a life partner....then you dont NEED to go outside said relationship....to find...or enhance...or fix...that which is missing from your marriage.....
<Kirspin> Playing does not have to lead to Sex, Playing is what makes it fun for both parties
<MasterGuny> thats the whole thing krista-F "play partner"
<krista-F> exactly.and when and if i ever do.....i will reconsider my choices Sir
<krista-F> the F at the end of my name is NOT a play partner.....
<BernieRoehl> I certainly admire your idealism, Anticipation^. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do respect it.
<Kirspin> Going back when I needed advice from my Trainer, she always told me to keep my zipper up and concentrate on the Play not on the Sex!
<shareena> it works for us
<krista-F> my husband has made me laugh every day for 30 yrs...no small thing...and not something i would destroy...on a whim
<krista-F> might i ask your age Anticipation^?
* Anticipation^ introduces shareena to everyone...my future wife....the one I CAN share both my vanilla AND BDSM life together with.....and krista-F....I am 42
<krista-F> i will be 52 in a couple of weeks Anticipation^....perhaps i feel more of a need to accept what i have...and not keep looking for perfection....you are a lucky man.....but not everyone is so fortunate......so take joy in your success.
<BernieRoehl> Shifting directions slightly... how do people balance their time and emotional energy between the two relationships?
<shareena> lol...if he is looking for perfection then he better keep looking. I am far from perfect...
<krista-F> it is not an easy thing Bernie...that i will say
<jewel`{F}> family comes first
<krista-F> but...how does one love more than one child......one dog...i happen to have a heart that can love many
<Kirspin> I agree but if ones home life is not to exciting or exacting then its not too bad to have a friend for casual play
<spirited_sassy{CP}> but there is alot more to D/s then playing
<Anticipation^> I am curious....how would a sub......who commits herself to a Dominant.....really commits....choose between....when lets say her Dominant.....desires her presence for some event....or just the evening....and her/his SO......says "but honey...I planned something for us"?
<silken^flame> i had 2 children krista-F and i loved them both
<BernieRoehl> Sharing love is (in my opinion) a very natural thing. Love is boundless. However... time is not.
<krista-F> i never "play" with my former Trainer...that is not what we are about....
<krista-F> exactly silken flame.....that is what i was saying
<krista-F> why is it then inconcievable that i can love my husband and a Dominant..?
<jewel`{F}> even though i have daily tasks that Master expects of me, they are worked around family things, if something comes up where a task can't be completed things are kept very realistic and Master understands that
<shareena> then you choose your family over your Dom jewel`{F}?
<jewel`{F}> we both do, but at the same time we work around our free time for each other
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i would hope so shareena...family should come first
<shareena> yes spirited_sassy{CP}, I agree. But I am wondering how that affects the dynamics of the relationship with your Dom or Master
<spirited_sassy{CP}> we work around our families
<krista-F> my husband's mother died this week.......i was with Trainer Sir when she passed..should i be shot?....my husband drove me to him...to be honest....
<Anticipation^> about the only thing I keep asking myself.....is.....if your SO (husband or wife) is to be your life partner.....why then....cant the two people...who committed themselves to that intial relationship...not find it within themselves....to provide what is being sought in an OUTside D/s relationship
<shareena> I would think that would be between yourself, your Trainer and your husband krista-F
<FatherMax> if the D/s relationship is truely a D/s relationship and not a "hey lets have some fun, and play a bit" which seems to be many's opion of a D/s relationship, then how can the family come before the D/s relationship
<jewel`{F}> we also do things with our families, Master and i will take my girls out for dinner with us, or take His kids out for dinner
<`abi> why couldn't you Anticipation^ ... it would seem that you tried?
<jewel`{F}> when my girls were in a musical production Master and i took His two oldest children to see it openning night
<krista-F> exactly.....but others would judge me harshly i have not doubt
<Anticipation^> your right abi...I couldnt.....so I ENDED that first relationship....our marriage did NOT survive.......so it ended...BEFORE I went looking for another
<`abi> but the point is Anticipation^ ... that it isn't always possible to provide what the partner desires ... no matter how committed you might be
<FatherMax> i agree with your approach Anticipation^ very admirable
<`abi> as you discovered
<`abi> the only thing that differs is what one decides to do about that dilemna
<krista-F> yes it is...very admirable...just not practical for me....
<Kirspin> nor for most people!
<Anticipation^> your right abi...but to me...and remember....I speak ONLY for myself....I could not in good conscience.....keep THAT relationship going....giving her the impression that all was well.....when the reason for it....was that I was getting what she could not give me....OUTSIDE that marriage
<`abi> You chose to walk away...other people make different choices. Frankly, I don't think that makes you any more of a hero or people who make other choices any more of a villain
<krista-F> at the funeral service yesterday the priest's sermon pretty much made it clear to me....im not getting any where near heaven anyway....so....will just continue to be the person i am...and try not to judge others..
<FatherMax> I dont think its possible to have a D/s relationship outside a vanilla marriage, you can play, have fun, rock out, but never achieve TOTAL commitment, which would be fundamental
<`abi> people make the best choices they can for themselves and the people they care about
<arhiannah> well....imho, if you're going to play outside your primary relationship, people shouldn't be so shocked that it turns around to bite them in the ass....which invariably it will do if you're not completely honest & up front about everything...
<Kirspin> One today needs a lot of Money to end a marriage, ie 50 percent of any home goes to the Exs
<MasterGuny> what about the marraiges that fail because the sub thinks she can have both till she falls in love with her master?
<MasterGuny> that happens way to often
<shareena> I've heard of that happening MasterGuny
<krista-F> i disagree FatherMax...i have totally submitted to Trainer Sir..and i am devoted to him..
<spirited_sassy{CP}> so who comes first krista-F Trainer or your husband
<FatherMax> so if he asked you to leave you husband your answer would be?
<Anticipation^> what one needs....more than money....is the will to say....."I am sorry...we have tried and tried to get all aspects of our relationship to work....but its not ever going to work.....you and I need to think that perhaps we need to release each other from this relationship....and find the one that does"
<krista-F> in a heartbeat....my husband is aware of that as well.but he does not believe i would go...he says im too practical....and Trainer will not be asking that of me.....so is a moot point
<shareena> then that is fortunate krista-F, it doesn't work out that way for all.
<spirited_sassy{CP}> so who comes first krista-F
<`abi> no Anticipation^ ...that's what you needed ... different people have different primary needs
<krista-F> depends on the day and the requirement......
<spirited_sassy{CP}> so you don't have a total commitment to either in other words
<krista-F> sometimes i have family obligations.....such as the funeral yesterday.and choosing a man of honor and quality for my D/s relationship..makes such things not a concern
<FatherMax> <krista-F> and i have no plans to change my life for a play partner.. so how would this statement reflect on your statement to leave for your trainor
<krista-F> Trainer is NOT my play partner..he does NOT play.......:)
<Anticipation^> I am sorry.......I cannot reconcile the idea that a committed D/s relationship......can reside OUTside another relationship with a totally different person.....you (a generic you that is)...say that it can.....I say....IF thats true.....then more power to each of your relationships
<FatherMax> i agree totally with you Anticipation^, well said
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i agree
<BernieRoehl> Everyone tries to find a path that works for them. If you can make your approach work, Anticipation -- then great, more power to you as well.
<FatherMax> its easy to re-define D/s to be convenient to ones lifestyle choice
<krista-F> thank you ..it has worked here for over two years real time.and it will never cease to
<krista-F> for honesty is the basis of all my life...
<spirited_sassy{CP}> never say never
<Cassity^> but again where are the rules that say one way or the other is right. there is no right or wrong in what we do .. we define our relationships to suit our needs.. and as long as nobody is getting harmed by what we are doing then that should be all that matters
<Anticipation^> in that krista-F.....you and I are in complete agreement...."honesty is the basis of all life".....
<krista-F> sassy...the day i start lying to myself or others..i will pack it in.
<FatherMax> nobody is questioning your honesty
<Cassity^> unfortunatly in many cases people do get harmed.. thats where things start to go dicey
<Kirspin> Unfortunately some people tend to be religious, which I am not and therefore it plays on some peoples mind
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i never questioned your honesty
<krista-F> to each their own....i am happy..and that is all i wish for others
<shareena> I don't think you have to be religious to believe in a relationship with one person.
<FatherMax> dont know what religion has to do with anything Kirspin
<MasterGuny> but some do get harmed when you step outside of your marriuage for a Ds relationship the other spouses and kids do all the time..they pay that price heavily
<Anticipation^> Kirspin....one doesnt need religion.....to keep a promise........and again krista-F....I am not questioning your honesty or your integrity
<krista-F> thank you Anticipation^...
<FatherMax> okay lets kiss and makeup nicely
<shareena> lol
<Cassity^> thats true Guny... proven over and over again .. both wihtin this community and outside..
<Kirspin> ahh reliigion as Karl Marx said is the Opium of the people
<krista-F> you know i am fond of you FatherMax...i took no offence
<arhiannah> someone always gets left behind...usually quite angry & hurt in the end
<Anticipation^> in all of this...I have only spoken of how *I* feel...and what I see it as
<FatherMax> I'm sorry Kirspin I didn't know Karl was a Dominant
<krista-F> as have i ..just a difference in opiion
<Kirspin> Now you know!
<FatherMax> I had him for more of a sub
<spirited_sassy{CP}> lol
<shareena> that is what discussion is all about. Giving our views. It doesn't mean we have to agree
<FatherMax> yanno serving the masses, sense of community and all
<BernieRoehl> If we all agreed, it would be a short discussion. Wouldn't need the whole hour!
<BernieRoehl> (Actually, that did happen on a few topics a while back. That's why we're tending to slightly more controversial ones, like tonight's)
<shareena> lol..yep BernieRoehl. You are right
<krista-F> beleive it or not i was determined to keep my mouth shut.another failure..:(
<Kirspin> Its good to have a spirited go once in a while
<FatherMax> well good for you BernieRoehl
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, FatherMax
<BernieRoehl> So, out of curiousity... how many people here have at some point or another actually been in the situation of having a vanilla marriage (or long-term relationship) and a D/s relationship as well?
<krista-F> moi...obviously
<Anticipation^> lol.....and krista-F....I was planning on not saying anything either......I was afraid people would take my views personally.....as a personal attack on the way they viewed thier relationships
<krista-F> i did not Anticipation^...so you were successfull
<arhiannah> i was..but i ended my marriage because i could not justify playing outside my primary relationship....that and my ex is a dufus *g*
<krista-F> lol
<shareena> rofl at arhiannah
<arhiannah> well..he IS
<krista-F> that would make my life a lot simppler......but my h is a great guy
<krista-F> the best
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<krista-F> just not Dom..and not into sex of any kind
<krista-F> yep....live and let live......
<spirited_sassy{CP}> yup
<jewel`{F}> i have been in a D/s relationship outside my marriage for a little over 2 yrs, in ways it has helped to get somet things in my marriage back on track, we are talking more now than we ever did
<FatherMax> jewel with all due respect, you have another relationship, I dont really call it D/s perhaps BDSM but to truely carry on a D/s relationship one needs total commitment
<spirited_sassy{CP}> i agree
<BernieRoehl> By the way, if anyone has any suggestions for discussion topics, just email me (broehl@ehbc.ca). Thanks.
<krista-F> i have always had a problem with those that cheat and lie.....to anyone...regardless of the type of relationship....
<krista-F> if things are out in the open....i make a distinction i guess
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<FatherMax> well i have one BernieRoehl, I'd love to see a discussion on What is D/s and Why is it different from BDSM