January 27, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Symbols of Submission". The moderator is endlessdesire who is stepping in on behalf of Bernie. Enjoy the discussion!
<jen{SE}> for me it is how i carry myself and how i go about day to day life.
<jen{SE}> it shows in the nuances
* rhiannon{KO} shows it by wearing her Kolar 24-7.
<`abi> I pretty much let them figure it out for themselves xxendlessdesirexx ... some never do
<jen{SE}> few who see SE and i together have any doubts who is Dominant and who is submissive *lol*
<rhiannon{KO}> very true jen{SE}..;)
* Kilted_One spanks xxendlessdesirexx with a @! *fwap*
<xxendlessdesirexx> how about visual give aways, is there anything anyone does, to show others who are looking for it that you are in the lifestyle?
<Omy> I hold my slaves hand by the wrist
<Argonaught> visualise by the normal things like slavebells etc?
<`vixie> that's interesting Omy
<jen{SE}> i don't for the most part it is not important for me for anyone else to recognize me as a submissive there is only One who needes to do that
<MrScotdom> The subject of owning is entirely different from the nuances of a good healthy D/s relationship. I do not wish at this time to explain the "ownership" medium, but the expressions of who is in control for Me is many things...
<MrScotdom> It could be a simple look, a verbal expression, a phone call from afar...
* oasis{Omy} shows it by being respectful of others and thoughtful of Masters wishes when i am at functions and he is not
<Omy> It was to a photgrapher at the western fair vixie :)
<xxendlessdesirexx> how about in public?, other then in a lifestyle atmosphere? how would a submissive who wants to be noticed show she is in the lifestyle?
<Sir_StephenS> recognizing submissiveness in chance encounters is pretty dicey...I see it sometimes, other times I am pretty sure it is in my imgination
<jen{SE}> Why do we need symbols of submission? Why do we need to be noticed as being in the lifestyle, it is just who we are
<DarkAngel^{rt}> my slave always walks to the left of me ,,, and often holds the door open for me
<Omy> A BDSM symbol would be an idea...or walkign around with a collar that had a ring on it
<MrScotdom> I feel personally that the difference between previous vanilla excursions and D/s is the intensity of 90% of things that one would care to do with a partner.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> those are more our symbols though ,,, as apposed to symbols for others
<jen{SE}> my collar is not for show, my collar is for what it feels like to have it around my neck
<xxendlessdesirexx> some people choose to be noticed, perhaps a submissive unsure where to look and wishes to be found, would show some sort of signal?..
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that is what makes it better for some jen{SE}
<Argonaught> another question if I may? how does one subbir almost automatically get drawn to another subbie in say a normal vanilla "party"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> we each "need" what works for us
<jewel`{F}> i wear my collar all the time as well as dressing as Master wishes me too
<MrScotdom> The intensity for Me is the symbolism, and of course the obedience factor, that can be given and enjoyed in a packed Walmart and nobody else could know!
<rose_Deid{MD}> my collar is a reminder of who i belong to
<oasis{Omy}> its not necessarily being noticed.. its being a positive reflection of your training.. bringing honor to your Master .. publically as well as prvtly
<jen{SE}> i never doubt i am owned, how that shows itself for the most part is very subtle
<DarkAngel^{rt}> each has our own symbolism ,,, and the exact same thing might have different personal meaning
<Argonaught> I sincerly doubt syren could wear My collar while shopping though
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that is what makes things god
* Omy smiles at his property
<Like4u2cum> A submissive could wear a slave ring with a chain attached to her bracelet as a signal to potential Dom/mes
<Argonaught> especially walmart
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> rt wears my collar everywhere ,, except at work and her parents
<MrScotdom> The majority of external symbolism I see is a kolar. I have several Old School friends that openly walk their slave with collar and chains (on wrists) it is very rewarding to see the diversity of looks and stares.
<{OT}cariye> I have an anklet with a small padlock on it with Masters intials engraved there
<DarkAngel^{rt}> and even then ,, she has the sterling silver chain that was once part of my braclet
<`vixie> there are some who cannot wear such symbols in public, what could they do?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol
<Omy> There are symbols on chains they can where vixie
<xxendlessdesirexx> some people prefer to wear symbols hidden from the human eye, even if temporary.
<yummy> this might not be on topic but how does a collar differ from a kolar?
<`abi> anything can be a symbol vixie ... it is what you make it
<Omy> errr wear
<rhiannon{KO}> wear it under your clothing so that whenever you move, you feel it and reminds you.
<rose_Deid{MD}> i also wear a special earring as a symbol too of Masters ownership
<Omy> poor spelling yummy
<Kilted_One> symbols do not have to be of the "public" variety, they can be internal things or hidden things worn under the clothes
<Argonaught> what about a chain choaker in place of a collar for everyday wear?
<oasis{Omy}> i dont wear anything inpublic... i just know whom i represent
<DarkAngel^{rt}> some get nipples pierced ,, or clit hood and or outer lips
<yummy> Omy, i thought it might be a Gor thing
<xxendlessdesirexx> some have piercings, some have clothes they do not wear, the meer commonly known pantieless factor is even in itself a symbol, for if your not wearing one at your master's wish, it turns into a symbol of your obedience
<MrScotdom> What about the subject of tattoos?
<Omy> some may treat it as such yummy
<DarkAngel^{rt}> marks after play are also symbols ,,, just not lasting ones
<rhiannon{KO}> yes yummy, in Gor it is a KOlar, with myself, it is a KO_lar..;)
<Like4u2cum> Then it would be his/her manner i.e. downcast eyes that would signal to others.
* Argonaught listens
* `vixie likes that one Like4u2cum
<DarkAngel^{rt}> you say potato ,, I say po_ta_to
<jen{SE}> but to me the wearing of something because i am told too is a obedience task, it is not a symbol
<MrScotdom> Obedience in itself is a symbol of your dedication and desires to please.
<{OT}cariye> I think that if I am apart from Master that most would not think me submissive ...I am my own person with strong opinions
<jen{SE}> *smiles* used to always do the downcast eyes thingy :-)), til i was taught something that has stuck with me
<jen{SE}> submissive to One
<MrScotdom> Yes jen... He who asks "Which one do you watch?"
<MrScotdom> Is your only One.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> my slave has some nice marks right now ,,, from our play last night
<Like4u2cum> But what if a submissive is still searching for his/her One?
* `vixie grumbles in envy
<jen{SE}> **smiles* @ Like4u2cum she won't find Him/Her with her eyes down...
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<Argonaught> syren has asked for a tattoo
<DarkAngel^{rt}> she felt my marks all day ,,,, damn bitch came home from work quite horny as a result ,,, so often feling such things are a part of us
<xxendlessdesirexx> but he has a point if not for a signal a sign how is one to know she is submissive without guessing at body language?
<MrScotdom> Percentage wise like4u2cum, majority of persons are looking.... look around at the next Munch and see.
<jen{SE}> by speaking and communicating just as all couples do :-)
<{OT}cariye> I think that if someone is polite that might help .....
<pandora``> i have found at munches that if somebody wants to know if i am a submissive, they just tend to ask outright
<Like4u2cum> Like4u2cum, How would One recognize them?
<MrScotdom> I have found that their is a greater level of discussion within the relationship of D/s... for Me anyway...
<xxendlessdesirexx> what if the individual is a person who isn't one to communicate with words or attending gatherings, munches or play parties?
* `abi smiles at pandora`` ...gotta luv the direct approach :)
<jen{SE}> *smiles* @ MrScotdom there has to be, it is an intense lifestyle the more communication the better
<pandora``> lol, that's my way!
<yummy> xxendlessdesirexx. you don't communicate you are in trouble
<rose_Deid{MD}> so true yummy
<DarkAngel^{rt}> the topic isnt communication though ,,, the topic is symbols
<DarkAngel^{rt}> silent communication
<`abi> are symbols forms of communication DA?
<yummy> no matter how submissive you are you have to communicate your needs and wants
<Sir_StephenS> its curious that something as integral to personality as being a dom or sub cannot be figured out from observation
<DarkAngel^{rt}> and what they mean in a relationship
<xxendlessdesirexx> i know that many know that, but take in to perspective as well that the lifestyle is comming out more these days, there are many new people who do not know where to start
<jen{SE}> symbolism can be a double edged sword for submissive, it can be very rewarding and fulfilling when you are doing it to please someone, it can be used against you when you are single
<yummy> unless your ideal Dom mindreads
<DarkAngel^{rt}> yes `abi ,, definetly
<jen{SE}> if you are submissive, you have to serve anyone who asks,, bahhh humbuggg to that
<MrScotdom> If the individual is not one to communicate at munches or gatherings... then the ailment of the internet medium rears its ugly head again. The bottom line is if you want to find or share with like minded people, staring at a glass screen aint gonna do it for you.
<pandora``> oh i don't know Sir_StephenS, i am asked a lot if i am Domme, it's the way i carry myself i suppose
<`abi> how so DA?
<Argonaught> how does a Dom signify Himself or a Domme for that matter?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> a silent communication
<{OT}cariye> today there are many wearing collars and leather that are not into the lifestyle ...makes it harder
<foreveralways_dana> Some are dominant but not Dom Sir Steven
<DarkAngel^{rt}> like the idea of the BDSM symbol done in jewelry ,,, to recognize a felow kinkster
<foreveralways_dana> there is a group in the state who are trying to do just that DarkAngel
<DarkAngel^{rt}> there are numerous forms of symbols .... personal and obvious
<xxendlessdesirexx> a lot of people wear jewlery yes :)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> yes foreveralways_dana
<Argonaught> I believe a submissive or slave submits to ONE only not EVERYONE
<MrScotdom> I have found a verbal ID code that can easily establish those fellow kinksters.. add in the terminology "vanilla" and watch for their reaction.
<oasis{Omy}> symbols have meaning only to the wearer
<DarkAngel^{rt}> it was talked of up here too a few years ago
<xxendlessdesirexx> what are some things people have seen as far as adornment?
<jen{SE}> the question to me is why do we need symbolism, what does it give us, or what does it give others, recognization is not the reason for it in my opinion
<jen{SE}> if it is to meet an internal need :-)))))
<foreveralways_dana> thinks that would be easier... laughs... just recognizing the symbol on a ring...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that would be personal symbols oasis{Omy} ,,, and those are defined by the relationship ,, for the relationship
<DarkAngel^{rt}> nipple rings xxendlessdesirexx
<jen{SE}> agreed 100 percent Argonaught
<DarkAngel^{rt}> choakers ,,, collars
<xxendlessdesirexx> yes nipple rings are common.. lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> actually collars are now a fasion accesory ,, seen on tv
<xxendlessdesirexx> anyone ever hear of a hematite ring worn on a specific finger?
<MrScotdom> The symbolism is an effective bond between two parties that care and love one another. The external supplement of that is enjoying being a part of a group with like minded individuals. The age old analogy of "being in my gang"
<Omy> Agrre DA.. I don;t feel there is a need to annouce to the world that which belongs to me. I know what is mine. I don't seek the approval of others in that regard
<xxendlessdesirexx> Omy some people like to announce to the world that which is there's though
<DarkAngel^{rt}> rt wears a hemetite ring ,, on her thumb
<jen{SE}> agree with Omy, well said
<rose_Deid{MD}> no xxendlessdesire what is that
<oasis{Omy}> many in and out of the scene have tats piercings colars... often many haven a clue what them mean.. so in the ende the symbols are personal
<Argonaught> syren has 2 collars one i gave her at the inception and one special one wich is personalised
<DarkAngel^{rt}> some do ,, and enjoy that Omy
<xxendlessdesirexx> hematite is a black shiney brittle rock
* yummy wonders if there is a "key" so that the unaware can figure out what means what
<xxendlessdesirexx> shapped into a common wedding band like ring..
<yummy> so many wear symbols so early they become meaningless
<Argonaught> the bond is in truth invisible
<jen{SE}> *lol* @ yummy, no key
<MrScotdom> It may not be approval Omy, it could manifest itself with a mutual respect for the woman by another lifestyler.
<pandora``> agreed yummy
<Sir_StephenS> symbol inflation
<Omy> Agreed xxendlessdesirexx...but to many...theor private life is just that. They tell those that are close to them. The rest don't need to know
<yummy> talking to a Dom who had a sub with him at a play party who wanted to wear a collar and a tag on such collar for her protection
<DarkAngel^{rt}> dont you mean Omy ,,,, that "you" do not feel the need to do so ,,,, or are you saying it is wrong for others to do so ?
<rose_Deid{MD}> ty
<yummy> to me that really negates the entire "higher level" symbolism
<Omy> Sorry DA...let me rephrase...its 'MY' personal opinion.
<Argonaught> lind of living up to the jones's millie has a prettier collar than me........... ?
<yummy> and makes it all a big game of "who has the bigger submissive symbol on their persona"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ahh ok Omy ,,,, lol,,, did not want to assume,, but that is how you stated ,, ty for clariffying
<dance`> Omy? Your sub wears Your name on line...
<jen{SE}> *high fives* yummy
<Omy> Yes she does dance`...but not for my benefit
<dance`> can I assume it is her desire
* dance` smiles
<rhiannon{KO}> i don't think of it as a game yummy i think of it as pride also. i wear the kolar not to symoblize myself, but out of RESPECT for my Master, i don't give a crap what others think.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> my slave enjoys walking thru the mall wearing my collar ,, and I am proud to have her walking at my side in my symbol ,,,, strokes my ego
<MrScotdom> We each have our own perversions, permutations & personalities. The discussion is the symbolism of an internal/external item, that is a physical analogy, not a mindset.
<`abi> is there a certain pride of ownership and of being owned that is expressed symbolically?
<dance`> I do not wear my Master's initials
<jen{SE}> on the serious side, we all do have symbols of some kind, i have one, which to me is an internal symbol that most would not know, it is not BDSM related
<Omy> It is two fold...one is her desire and the othe ris that I got tired of people asking me when she was going to be collared
<MasterDL> I agree totally with that DA
<yummy> rhiannon{KO}, this was a first bdsm date.....that is why i call it a game
<jen{SE}> agrees with rhiannon{KO}, the collar means more to you than a symbol
<oasis{Omy}> well doesnt that make one feel warm and fuzzy inside..lolol
<jen{SE}> that is what makes it special
<Sir_StephenS> ah yes..the ole ego stroke
<dance`> I wear my collar 24/7.. but the most important symbol to me.. and Him.. is my piercing that has an engraved tag on it
<DarkAngel^{rt}> can anyone give an example of an ODD ,, or hidden symbol ?
<rhiannon{KO}> yes jen{SE} it is...
<Omy> I know what it is I own dance` and I am very pleased in my ownership. I don't feel obligated to inform the world about what I own.
<dance`> hehe and it is NOT visible to the public :)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol,,, I like dance` ,,, good for you
<Like4u2cum> Chastity devices DA
<Kilted_One> there is a certain personal hill that one has to climb over to wear a steel kolar in public. It does take nerve,desire and a want to do so
<xxendlessdesirexx> i know of a friend who wears he master's name tattoo'd to her upper right bottocks
<dance`> that is a hidden symbole I would think Dark Angel :)
<jen{SE}> i think we get wrapped up in the symbols, not the emotions behind them
<dance`> yes jen
<DarkAngel^{rt}> definetly dance` ,, but i was wondering of an odd one ,,
<Argonaught> does it really matter about an online collar? there are so many versions of online collars in IRC who really knows what collar is what my slave has worn [A] to signify a R/l collar but I've also seen (A}and theh name and about 6 different variations so where is the exact line which online collar signifies WHAT or doesnt it really matter?
<dance`> and that is ok.. to a point
<MasterDL> the specific "level" of symbolism is between the partners exchanging the symbol, and the perception by other isnt relavant
<jen{SE}> it is the feelings that are generated that are key
<MrScotdom> I think a fine example of symbolism is right here in this room. The beautiful hand crafted kolar owned by Kilted One. Right here is the epitome of symbolism in a physical abberation.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> to me they mingle ,,, symbol means emotion jen{SE} ,,, she would not wear my symbols ,, if she didnt warent my emotion
<dance`> let us not forget that no matter how strong we are.. we are fundamentally insecure ppl (IMO)
<Kilted_One> but the word of the ceremony are ever present...."the real kolar is worn around the heart"
<dance`> many of us need those symbols
<DarkAngel^{rt}> true dance` ,,, thus I said ,, my slave wearing my collar strokes my ego
<jen{SE}> but would the emotion still be there if the symbol was not, of course it would be.....
<dance`> :)
<oasis{Omy}> symbols bring an aura of comfort
<Argonaught> obviosly my question is being ignored
<jen{SE}> *smiles* @ KO one of my favorite quotes
<jewel`{F}> DarkAngel^{rt} i am not sure how odd a symbol it is as tattoos are comon but a tattoo of Ones name in Japanese symbols or the name that the One has given to one
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no different than holding hands jen{SE} ,,, phisical manestefation of a bond,, love and feelings ,,, no need to hold hands ,,, is there ?
<dance`> and reality is that being owned is a 'good thing'
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that is a good one jewel`{F} ,, ty dear
<Omy> No Argonaught..I don't think it does...but there are those that will pester about it...those that want to live but aren't
* DarkAngel^{rt} <-- likes to hold hands ,,,, big musshy Dom ,,,,ROFLMAO
<yummy> Argonaught, online collars mean just as much as r/l collars...which is either tons or absolutely nothing ......but it depends on who is wearing them
<jen{SE}> exactly DA :-)), that is all i am saying, is the symbolism is not the emotion, the emotions is the symbolism
<dance`> hmm yummy I have to disagree to some extent on that
<`vixie> that's a good way of putting it jen{SE}
<Kilted_One> Argonaught on line it is a little different as you are not face to face, the wearing of a kolar just makes initial communication a little easier and can keeps the wolves away
<xxendlessdesirexx> ever look at a symbol, say wearing a simple bdsm symbol as a reminder and encoragement, as modivation to reach a personal goal for those uncollard?.
<dance`> online has bastardized collars
<DarkAngel^{rt}> we are no different than Vanillas ,, symbols take meaning ,, that are very important ,,,, hell,, loose your wedding ring and tell me you aint in the dog house
<yummy> dance`, i know some who it as meaning to
<Omy> Agreed KO
<yummy> dance`, that was the question about online
<MrScotdom> Online collaring is really an embarrassment to the whole idea of human interaction. Anyone can be a DOm behind the keyboard, this is the catalyst for so many being hurt in their first encounters. FOr that reason the Internet is the worst form of communication.
<Argonaught> but what exactly defines an online collar and how's the variations signify what or............. doesnt it matter?
<MasterDL> lol, @ DA, been there, done that
<rhiannon{KO}> to one person a kolar is one thing, a symbol, a thing to take off when there is no one around to look at it..put it away untill you are out in public again to show it off as a *symbol* to others it is an extention of thier Master. something that they never want to take off no matter where they are..they don't want the symbolism, they want the security of it.
<dance`> yes I am sure.. individuals.. but as a whole.. too many have been taken.. given.. whatever..
<jen{SE}> *lol* @ DA, i have lost 3 wedding rings
<dance`> there is no purity anylonger to some
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol,, MrScotdom ,, I disagree ,,, that is quite the brush you just broadly used
<Kilted_One> are you saying that on line relationships mean nothing MrScotdom??
<yummy> but i hold to my belief that i need to know the people wearing giving them to know what they mean......becuase they go from "met last night and is wearing to symbolize they are my date to long term D/s relationship
<jen{SE}> exactly rhiannon{KO} :-)))
<Omy> I disagree MrScotdom. I find it a useful means of communication
<DarkAngel^{rt}> stil married jen{SE} ?*innocent grin*
<MasterDL> Isnt the internet the tool that ppl all over the world have used to find others in this lifstyle, or any other they are interested in?
<oasis{Omy}> not all will beable to experience d/s in thier r/l... but in thier hearts they are submissive ..
<jen{SE}> was for 22 year DA, and still very good friends, so no losing the rings had nada to do with it *lol*
<rose_Deid{MD}> my online relationship means everything to me
<DarkAngel^{rt}> the internet has allowed our community to be found by those lost soals ,,, like me
<MrScotdom> It is a good means of transporting information, but not a good means by which to communicate with a faceless voiceless Dominant.
<MasterDL> and Me too DA
<xxendlessdesirexx> Just a note we are looking for Symbols of submission commonly found in a public atmosphere in r/t (try to stay away from the virtual aspect, that is a whole new flogger waiting to be broken in)
<{OT}cariye> and helps if you cant be 24/7
<MrScotdom> Somewhere along the line of bits and bytes... you have to meet this person to know more about them.
<Argonaught> the internet has brought a whole new injection into the lifestyle though
<DarkAngel^{rt}> MrScotdom ,,, others kinks ,,, certainly is not to be looked down on ,,, just cause one might have passed to the next level
<Omy> I disagree MrScotdom.. I find it an excellent methof of communicating...and in some respects better than face to face
<MrScotdom> Yes fake injection mostly.
<Kilted_One> it is often said that losing one sense makes the others more sensitive, is that not true of IRC MrScotdom??
<oasis{Omy}> why MrScotdom
<jen{SE}> much discussion on physical symbols what about the non physical symbols
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol,,,
<dance`> :) I was just thinking the same jen
* xxendlessdesirexx smiles @ jen (good call)
<{OT}cariye> what do you mean by non physical?
<dance`> my opening doors for MT..
<DarkAngel^{rt}> now how did you manage to turn the conversation from symbols to on-line relationships MrScotdom
<dance`> that is a very strong symbol for me
<xxendlessdesirexx> body language, is a symbol, be it the basics, or ones taught in specifics
<DarkAngel^{rt}> definetly xxendlessdesirexx
<MrScotdom> IRC has broken a lot of hearts for the uninitiated and inexperienced. Text carries no mood, no nuances no raised eyebrow... nothing... just black text scrolling across your computer screen.
<jewel`{F}> jen{SE} by nonphysical you are refering to actions and such?
<dance`> heeh and I had to 'teach' Him that one
<jen{SE}> yes jewel or feelings
<yummy> MrScotdom and real life doesn't cause its share of heartache?
* DarkAngel^{rt} was only nervous for the first few minutes when his slave knelt at his feet (me in a chair) at her parents house
* Omy raises an eyebrow at MrScotdom and thinks he is full of shit
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
<{OT}cariye> like waiting for Master to order our food...and waiting to be allowed to eat or drink ?
<jen{SE}> the kind of feeling you get when He looks at you a certain way and you know beyond a doubt Who owns you
<MrScotdom> Omy possibly is having difficulty debating.
* rhiannon{KO} agrees with jen{SE}..;)
<dance`> yes OT.. it can be done subtly.. and remain between only the two involved
<jewel`{F}> things like being at a buffet & filling Master's plate before you fill your own
<{OT}cariye> its cariye :)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lets get back to the same debate perhaps all ?
<MrScotdom> Yes... I dont know how it got over here.
<xxendlessdesirexx> how about a motion indicated by your master that symbolizes an expected reaction by yourself, any examples out there?
<Argonaught> Whether syren is online or not she knows she is owned the internet is just one way we "play"
<Omy> Its touch to debate with a fool MrScotdom...so lets leave it that we agree to disagree and get back on topic
<DarkAngel^{rt}> buffets get hard jen{SE} ,,,LOL,, I agree ,, otherwise ,, I decide and order for rt
<`vixie> you mean like a look xxendlessdesirexx?
<rhiannon{KO}> or serving Master at the diner table in frount of guests...;)
<xxendlessdesirexx> yes vixie exactly
<xxendlessdesirexx> unlike the common and everyday
* `vixie thinks getting 'the look' can be very fun
<MasterDL> you mean like my snapping of fingers endless??????????
<xxendlessdesirexx> ones a D/s couple create
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol yes DL...
<{OT}cariye> I always remove Masters shoes when He comes...even when my ex mom in law was here
<jewel`{F}> or when out with F/friends and Master just getting one drink & you asking if you can share it
<xxendlessdesirexx> only you know what it means right, it has significant meaning to your slave...
<dance`> funny.. those inuenndos occur in vanilla relationships..
<Like4u2cum> You mean gestures?
<xxendlessdesirexx> but to those around you unaware, it's a symbol of "oh no he's doing the dom thingy to teri again"
<jen{SE}> *lol*, ok, can i be gross and say the word NOW has a very special meaning... *grins*
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I always found seeing a slave serve ,, or kneel to her Master or Misstress to be the most erotic glimpse into a relationship
<Argonaught> another thing Ive noticed subbies tend to gravitate to one and other
<rhiannon{KO}> lol@jen.
* Kilted_One says "Symbol"...a mark or object used to represent something.....ergo it has to be "physical" in some shape or fashion non??
<MasterDL> yes you are right endless, and you know that she always reacts when I snap my fingers, but only she and I know to what extent
<rhiannon{KO}> lets just hope that no one yells it out in the middle of a mall..teehee.
<Like4u2cum> Sheep in a pasture A
<MrScotdom> I am curious to those that have been given tattoos by One, then the relationship broke apart. How did your new partner react to the symbolism of the old One's tattoo?
<`vixie> lol rhiannon{KO}
<jen{SE}> only works when One person yells it *lol*
<Omy> Like BDSM, I think the symbols used to display the couples attachment are for them to decide. There are conventional and non-conventional means
<Argonaught> a kef is the least noticible
<DarkAngel^{rt}> yes Kilted_One ,, otherwise one would be referint to protecol,, anouther topic ,, to be sure
<rhiannon{KO}> lol, thank goodness ...;))
<Kilted_One> I think we maybe confusing "rituals" and "behaviour" for "symbols"
<dance`> no tattoo here Scotdom..
<dance`> but I wear a gold chain from Someone else
<S_W> there are differences between acts which are meant to show deference to the One, and acts which are meant to demonstrate this deference to others outside of the relationship
<jen{SE}> question is what is a symbol of submission to me, the biggest symbol of my submission is what i feel...
<MrScotdom> A gold chain is an easier medium to remove than a tatoo hahahaha.
<Argonaught> a tattoo on a girls inner thigh is a sign of ownership
<dance`> it seldom leaves my body.. but MT understands what it symbolizes
<MasterDL> I dont think a symbol needs to be tangable
<Omy> So is a branding Argonaught
<dance`> and it too a long time to get to that point for Him
<Argonaught> a kef?
<S_W> kneeling is clearly universal DA - something more private may not be - and may be a secret indication or at least reserved for those "in the know"
<Argonaught> well
<xxendlessdesirexx> that is a physical attribute jen, how about a visual, even if you care not to show one, how would you if you wanted to?
<rhiannon{KO}> how can a feeling be a symbol jen?? it is just that a "feeling".
<Omy> That is one example Argonaught
<Argonaught> syren has been mewing for months for a tattoo
<MrScotdom> A tattoo is for life..... few other things are!
<jen{SE}> nope, to me it a symbol,
<jen{SE}> *lol*, i know a very descriptive answer that was
<DarkAngel^{rt}> point S_W ,,,, as Kilted_One just said ,,, perhaps we could focus on the physical ... and leave the proticol for anouther topic
<xxendlessdesirexx> Ok how about we quickly go over the Pro's and Con's of symbols of submission, what are some good things?
<Argonaught> when I pierced her ears I thought she would burst into tears
* DarkAngel^{rt} <-- not a Pro
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<xxendlessdesirexx> a Con then DA?
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<jen{SE}> but i not sure how to explain it, in day to day life i am outgoing and to many would be considered a dominant personality, with SE i am submissive so my behaviour, feelings etc.. change around Him
<dance`> what do you mean endless?
<yummy> well MrScotdom, not all go into relationships thinking they will be short, but if that is your experience and your expectation i can see why you are not fond of permanent sympbols
<DarkAngel^{rt}> but I did Con rt ,,,,*evil snicker*
<jen{SE}> because of what He and i symbolise
<xxendlessdesirexx> what is a good thing, about showing a symbol openly of your submission dance?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> why else would she be wearing my silver chain even in front of people she would be deathly afraid of finding out ?
<dance`> perhaps all that was said above? there are good things that the individuals get from it..
<dance`> I am pierced.. I would not be tattood..
<MasterDL> lol, so it would seem DA
<xxendlessdesirexx> well what's an example from the perspectives of the individuals in here?
<dance`> to me the labia ring/tag is good.. hehe a tattoo may not be?
<jen{SE}> xxendlessdesirexx i do have a collar that i wear, and it means more than words are ever going to say i did not say i don't believe in physical symbols, but believe the emotions behind the symbols are what count
<MrScotdom> Yummy, that is your assumption. I am merely creating discussion and ideas. I did not express that it was my experience. Tattoos are one of the oldest forms of symbolism, unfortunately they are not easy to remove like a metal collar around your neck.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> it is personal xxendlessdesirexx ,,,
<yummy> MrScotdom, are you saying you are trying to stir up shit?
<Argonaught> seems to me that no one is prepared to say or comit anything tonight
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I like my slave wearing symbols of my ownership ,, that is my flavour of this our much varried lifestyle
* jewel`{F} thinks a tattoo that can be removed with a laser is better than a brand
<xxendlessdesirexx> ok then moving on, what are some Con's of symbols of submission
* DarkAngel^{rt} thinks this is a good topic,, and excess stirring need be left at the door
<xxendlessdesirexx> how about scareing the parents and friends?..lol
<oasis{Omy}> once someone has entered your heart you cannot just cut them out,, they are forever prt of you no matter the future
* Argonaught was thinking of creating a "brand" with a violet wand
<DarkAngel^{rt}> xxendlessdesirexx ,,, the "outing" to those who you do not wish
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
<yummy> MrScotdom, if you have a problem with what i say in channel please bring it up to the moderators of this discussion
<`abi> simply put ... a symbol is what you make it ... we infuse things with symbolic meaning because it pleases us to have tangible evidence of non-tangible concepts ... where it becomes tricky is when people expect the opposite to happen .. the symbol cannot create the non-tangibles that it represents
<MasterDL> that is one endless, or having your slaves parents told about "that interenet predator that is into weird and kinky stuff" before you ever have a chance to meet them
<DarkAngel^{rt}> also the hurt such symbols would create if ,,, heaven forbid ,, the relationship is ended
<xxendlessdesirexx> :) @ abi
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol yes DL
<DarkAngel^{rt}> very well said `abi
* MasterDL still hasnt met slaves father... lol
<xxendlessdesirexx> yes the symbol in the lifestyle can be a painfull reminder of ones past can it not?
<S_W> Symbols of ownership and of submission may, again, be very similar (though necessarily different). I guess what is common to both is they are symbols which can be seen by others.
<dance`> yikes yes endless
<DarkAngel^{rt}> we make the Pro's of symbols ,, and have to endure the Con's ,,, if that is what our particular relationship flavour entails
<xxendlessdesirexx> but in the same token can also be the driving force, the meer sight of the symbol triggers a new flame
<dance`> ok.. what about Masters that insist slave/subs wear collars etc that are NOT easily acceptable to the general public..
<foreveralways_dana> yes it can be endless... i still have my collars from Him but its the one around the heart thats the hardest to remove
<DarkAngel^{rt}> symbols arent for all ,,, I respect those who incorperate them ,, and respect those who dont
<rhiannon{KO}> very true foreveralways_dana..
<dance`> I have known several that put the subs thru some terrible discomfort that way
<rhiannon{KO}> and if a slave/sub has problems wearing a kolar in public, then i would wonder about what type of symbol she has put to it herself...
* MasterDL agrees with DA
<Argonaught> thats about it foreveralways_dana
<xxendlessdesirexx> story of o (branding) oooo oww
<dance`> really rhiannon
<Omy> I think that is non-consentual dance` and breaks a cornerstone of the lifestyle
<dance`> a heavy studded leather collar in an office setting?
<Kilted_One> what about master's that do that dance`??
<rhiannon{KO}> yes dance.
<dance`> my point exactly Kilted One
<DarkAngel^{rt}> branding/tattooing ,,, fairly permanent ,,, a big undertaking ,,, but with science ,, nothing is permanent now
<xxendlessdesirexx> agreed DA
<Argonaught> skin grafts?
<dance`> hmmm not in my office rhiannon
<Kilted_One> what point?? dance`, I still dont know what you are asking??
<rhiannon{KO}> some look at Master's kolar and think....how can she wear that in public.......
<{OT}cariye> collars do not have to be heavy studded leather
<dance`> lol the pts would think I finally lost it
* DarkAngel^{rt} accepts a little graft on the side ,,,, ok,, you get in free
<MrScotdom> The symbolism between two individuals surely is all that matters. Whether it is hidden under clothing or displayed for all to see. Each party involved is proud to wear the symbol of their partners love and affection... that in itself is a revelation.
* dance` I know that of course OT
<lil_kitten> branding and tattooing might not be permanent - you can replace them with a *nasty* scar if you must
<Argonaught> syren has two but they are symbols
<xxendlessdesirexx> why is it bottoms wear more symbols of submission then there master's, does anyone wear something that symbols there ownership of there bottom?
<rhiannon{KO}> and do you think a Master would make his slave wear something like that in an office when He knows her job could be at risk.???? are you sure that is a Master???
<DarkAngel^{rt}> with great beauty rhiannon{KO}
<Argonaught> not the invisible bond which really joins us
<rhiannon{KO}> thank You dance`..Sir.
<dance`> sir?
<rhiannon{KO}> woop
<dance`> heheh
* Argonaught pats His lap
<rhiannon{KO}> that should be DarkAngel^{rt} Sir..
<rhiannon{KO}> lol
* dance` looks down
<dance`> whew
* DarkAngel^{rt} has a matching ring ,,, and one part of his sterling silver chain ,,,, split to make his braclet ,, and her neclace
<rhiannon{KO}> sorry dance...
<xxendlessdesirexx> aww that's sweet DA
<dance`> lol not a prob
<xxendlessdesirexx> very nice
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol
<S_W> on that question rhiannon{KO} - I guess it is a matter of choice; but I agree with your sentiment
<Argonaught> question syren ywould you wear your collar to work?
<dance`> very Dark Angel
<MasterDL> I know I would have no problem wearing a symbol from my slave
<xxendlessdesirexx> Ok Everyone another discussion comes to a close, any last words?
<Like4u2cum> As a simbol of ownership, perhaps a handcuff key around my neck.
<syren[A]> if You requested it Master, yes
<lil_kitten> at quarter to?
<dance`> thanks for letting me step in and enjoy :)
<MrScotdom> I do not feel that there is any right or wrong in which method of symbolism is chosen. I have enjoyed seeing and learning of many couples individual treasures for each other. That is a delight even if you cannot see it!
<MasterDL> I agree with that MrScot
<xxendlessdesirexx> (time is not up yet lil, just making people aware it soon will be)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I like symbols ,,, physical ones ,, and it warms me ,, to see my slave enjoying wearing my symbols
<MistressSarcastica> xxendlessdesirexx: to answer your question, my partner and I wear symbols of one another. We have matching tattoos. We wear one another's blood.
<dance`> :) MT keeps the keys to my bed chain with Him always Like 4U
<xxendlessdesirexx> it is good to see both in the relationship wearing a symbol
<Like4u2cum> :)
<dance`> is that symbolism or practicality??
<DarkAngel^{rt}> here is a symbol ,,,, I often chain my slave to my bed at night ,,,, that aint to stop her form going to the bathroom ,,,lol
<rhiannon{KO}> LOL
<MrScotdom> But beds can fit through the average sized doorway correct? hahahaha.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> but of course ,,, damn ,,, she gets to wake me if she has to pee ,,,,,lol
<Argonaught> but.......... to tattoo someone ......... its PERMANANT
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<rhiannon{KO}> is that so she doesn't run away in the middle of the night DA???
<MasterDL> but DA, wouldnt rt feel out of place if you didnt chain her to the bed?
<`abi> is it so she can't roll over and stick you with the wet spot DA?
<xxendlessdesirexx> not with todays science Argonaught
<rhiannon{KO}> lol..
<DarkAngel^{rt}> yup rhiannon{KO} ,,lol,,, actually,,, she enjoys the feel of it
<dance`> ohh DA it is sooooooo hard to wake Him to go to the bathroom @ 3 am
<MrScotdom> Get a potty!
<rhiannon{KO}> as do i DA. i am chained to the bed each night also...and would HATE it if Master forgot..
<MrScotdom> Walmart $3.95
<dance`> and yes. DA.. it feels very very good... and excellent symbol if You will
<MistressSarcastica> Argonaught: you're right. To assume that it can be completely reversed is optimistic.
<Argonaught> or rubber sheets (waits thats My fetish)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no it isnt dance` ,,, she always sleeps on my left ,, so has to crawl over me anyway
<lil_kitten> You don't have to tattoo another's name on you - if you're going to get a tattoo, it had better be something you plan to live with forever - like having kids, but with less responsibility :)
* Kilted_One nudges his brother DA and reminds him that there are things called "chamber pots"
<dance`> :) I meant I wait till the very last possible moment to wake Him to unlock that chain!
<DarkAngel^{rt}> uh oh ,, we having a split ?
<xxendlessdesirexx> i hope not
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no Kilted_One ,,,, she is my bed chamber slave ,,,LOL
<S_W> if not permanent xxendlessdesirexx, than surely semi-perm; but the very fact that it eteches in a manner difficult to remove is the very point - it is that permanency in the face of a relationship which is not which gvies the symbol *more* power
<Like4u2cum> <---- Has chains and awaits the true slave for Him.
<S_W> after all - tattoos are hardly exclusive to SM - they are very vanilla too
<DarkAngel^{rt}> true S_W ,, but also harder to hide from parents
<dance`> patience Like 4U
<xxendlessdesirexx> the power given to a symbol of any sort, is in it's meaning, be it personal or universal
<dance`> hehe I waited 20+ yrs to take my 2nd collar
<lil_kitten> depends where you get the tattoo
<Like4u2cum> Yes dance, I'm learning that. :)
* DarkAngel^{rt} slipping out early ,,,, good discussion all ,, ty ,,,, and KUDOS to xxendlessdesirexx ,, good work dear
<rhiannon{KO}> bye DA...;)
<`vixie> ciao DA
<xxendlessdesirexx> ty DA
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)
<xxendlessdesirexx> say hi to your mom DA
<suzq{CK}> bye DA
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<dance`> bye DA good dreams to You
<MasterDL> Night DA
<Argonaught> you are uncommonly silent syren?
<syren[A]> i'm not sure, am i Master?
<xxendlessdesirexx> Well i believe this will bring this discussion to a close tonight, i thank everyone for there participation, and patience.
<xxendlessdesirexx> and of course there tolerance for the fill in moderator. this closes the discussion of Symbols of Submission. thankyou A/all
<`vixie> good job xxendlessdesirexx :)
<justagrrrl> thank you xxendlessdesirexx
<Like4u2cum> Good discussion xxendlessdesirexx. :)
<rhiannon{KO}> good job xxendlessdesirexx..thank you..
<xxendlessdesirexx> :)