January 21 2001 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time to start this week's discussion
<Kirspin> Hi melody
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> hey mist-Carole??
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic channel message that reads as follows...
<mist-Carole> deb and Carole
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using hebron.in.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "Dealing with chronic discipline problems". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> This is one of the topics that was suggested a while back, but none of our moderators ever wanted to take it on
<BernieRoehl> So... here I am :-)
<mist-Carole> brave Bernie
* BernieRoehl smiles
<Kirspin> Carry on Bernie, you are the best Moderator anyway
* BernieRoehl chuckles -- thanks, Kirspin :-)
<BernieRoehl> So, the first question is, "what do we mean by a 'discipline problem'?"
<cushlamochree> greetings 33/f
* ^trufriend didn't know what teh topic was Bernie, until asking abi earlier...
<^trufriend> i came up with a slightly different one..."cronic disappointment problems"
<BernieRoehl> Has anyone here had to deal with something you would consider a "discipline problem"?
* mist-Carole (Carole in particular) snickers nastily
* cushlamochree is a discipline problem, trying to figure out how to save this one's hiney
<Kilted_One> is that in the sense of having to dicipline??...or following a dicipline???
<JessL> i might have an example...but it's more heresay from an old top...
<mist-Carole> I guess the greatest problem *I've* seen, personally, is subs who "push it" to GET discipline
<BernieRoehl> I believe the original intent was "having to discipline"
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> oh i have seen that
<BernieRoehl> Let's hear it, JessL
<JessL> ok, what about subs that want their doms to work at being doms?
* BernieRoehl nods at mist-Carole
<mist-Carole> I honestly believe the only real way to deal with THAT dicipline problem is to IGNORE the sub, until they can behave better
<BernieRoehl> I've done that, mist-Carole, and it's *very* hard on the sub
<JessL> i see......
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> what if the subbie is in public mist
<dalian> was it effective though, Bernie?
<^trufriend> have you tried some reading material Jess?
<mist-Carole> yes, it is, but rather than "rewarding" bad behaviour, through giving them the corporal punishment they desire, they are getting "real" punishment... breeze, I would personally inform the sub they were NOT going to get the next play session due to their misbehaviour
<BernieRoehl> Yes, dalian -- very effective
<mist-Carole> (this is Carole, btw, mist is reading over my shoulder)
* dalian nods
<JessL> well, i've done a bit of here and there...few books...but it's the point of wanting the dom to be a dom, not just fall into role....though that's fun on it's own...
* BernieRoehl notes that so far, the subs are advocating a much tougher stand than many Doms actually take
<jen{SE}> if a submissive/slave is pushing for discipline is this not reflective of deeper problems in the relationship, eg lack of play or attentino
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> ahh
<arhiannah{G}> David always threatens _not_ to discipline me...pretty much the same as what Bernie & Carole are saying..not rewarding bad behaviour
<mist-Carole> Jess, that is a HUGE problem, especially when the "Dom" is really doing the "Domming" to please the sub, rather than themselves
<JessL> yes, you mentioned that before....
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) Not much point in giving a spanking as punishment, as we LIKE it
* BernieRoehl nods at mist-Carole
<JessL> that's true...
<mist-Carole> arhiannah{G}... how does the "denial" make you feel, in comparison to being punished corporeally?
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> orgasm control yikes!!!!
* Kilted_One has found limited sucess with "the chain of shame".....a large length of chain worn around the waist and everyone that visits here knows that it is the chain of shame
<BernieRoehl> So, a question for the subs -- what leads you to have chronic discipline problems? Is it always an attempt to get "punished"?
* jen{SE} is always good, never needs to be punished :-)
* BernieRoehl smiles at jen{SE}
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) sometimes, it's a lack of attention on the Dom's part that actually ALLOWS the behaviour
<arhiannah{G}> not so much feel as realize that by being a "brat"..i'm not going to get what i want..
* dalian echoes jen{SE}'s sentiment
<mist-Carole> (Carole asks:) Do lectures work??
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) the worst thing you could do to me is to tell me to go and think about what i have done wrong
<`melody> I cant agree there... there are spankings and there are SPANKINGS... when the intensity of feeling and sensation are boosted.. I nolonger enjoy the spanking... .. to take that whicj you most love and turn it into something unpleasant ... is a very effective deterant
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> not speaking from experience but from what i have seen it is looking for attention
* arhiannah{G} chuckles..perhaps fortuitously..i *really* like the pain...lol
<cushlamochree> BernieRoehl, Sir, for some of us it is just inborn to be some what bad :(, not that we wish to be punished, perhaps we are more bottoms than subs in some cases
<jen{SE}> punishment in this context seems to mean a way to play
<mist-Carole> (mist continues:) i punish myself worse than any physical punishment, by knowing i've done something that displeases the Dom
<jen{SE}> punishment to me, would be to have my Master send me away from Him or to yell at me, (i cry when yelled at)
<mist-Carole> (Carole asks:) but, is REAL punishment REALLY a part of a SSC relationship? Does it have a place in ANY loving relationship?
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i do misbehave but not chronic i feel terrible when i do something wrong
<jen{SE}> agrees 100% with mist-Carole
* ^trufriend wonders how to differentiate from punishment and pleasure....
* BernieRoehl nods at cushlamochree
<^trufriend> both can cause pain
<BernieRoehl> So is that behaviour something the Dom should try to correct, cushlamochree?
<^trufriend> both can cause hurt
<^trufriend> both definitely cause feelings to surface
<jen{SE}> excactly ^trufriend if spankings eg used for punishment and play then what's the lesson learned
<`melody> thats individual choice Carole... discipline is necessary with me... you must control me mentally as well as physically... to hold me in check... play and control...
<jen{SE}> where is the submission if it has to be forced and punished out of a slave
<mist-Carole> (Carole ripostes:) But REAL discipline comes from WITHIN mel, if you're needing from an EXTERNAL source, then what you're saying is that you cannot control yourself, THEREFORE you have a discipline problem
<cushlamochree> aww BernieRoehl, cushie is still trying to get the Dom to be her sub, so yes, it should perhaps be corrected, unless both parties enjoy it at the level it is
<jen{SE}> control for me comes from my desire to please my Master
<`melody> punishment for me is a release from the guilt a sort of purgeing......
* BernieRoehl nods
<Kilted_One> and is itreally submission then jen??
<jen{SE}> not to me if it is forced than not true submission
<jen{SE}> submissive has not made the decision to submit
<mist-Carole> (Carole replies:) if the actions that you do cause you feelings of guilt, WHY would you do them? Guilt is an unpleasant feeling, usually to be avoided.
<^trufriend> what is the punishment...a beating, deprivation, ignoring, what? i realize it can change depending on the situation that requires punishment as a response...
<`melody> is it forced jen... is not consent given prior to play.... is it not an accepted median in the relationship....
<BernieRoehl> Quite often the most effective punishments are the ones that relate to the offense
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> discipline for me is not physical but mental
<jen{SE}> yes BernieRoehl, punishment should fit the crime
<jen{SE}> the submission is forced... does not mean it is not SSC,
<mist-Carole> (Carole continues her tirade:) basically, breeze, punishment SHOULD be mental, emotional, and to be PERFECTLY evil, the punishment should be chosen BY THE SUB, and fair to fit the crime. that way she/he is imposing SELF-DISCIPLINE. scary thought
<jen{SE}> then it is not submission it is bottoming....
<^trufriend> can anyone give an example of a 'crime' then?
<^trufriend> then a 'suitable punishment'
<jen{SE}> a good slave goes out of her way to not be punished to be one step ahead of her Master, meeting His needs before He has to ask for them
<`melody> define submission jen
<BernieRoehl> I actually asked around a while back (when the topic was first suggested) for examples of discipline problems
* BernieRoehl digs up the list
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> thats the type of discipline i react better to
<mist-Carole> (mist answeres tru:) for instance, i didn't follow the diet that Master and i worked out between us, i didn't submit the menu to Master. Then my dinner for that evening is bread and water.
<jen{SE}> it is not questioning what i do or why i do it, it is giving of myself because i need to
<^trufriend> that's a discussion all its own mel
<BernieRoehl> Excellent example, mist-Carole -- very appropriate
* BLISs201 always thought dieting was a individual growth issue, not a couple issue
<^trufriend> but what if you don't follow the diet all week mist-Carole
<BernieRoehl> I think it depends on the couple, BLISs201. Some submissives will ask their Master for help with something like dieting, just as they might seek a personal trainer
<jen{SE}> *lol*, a good example of punishment is not listening when Master said not to buy bamboo for canes... found out yep, He's right....
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) if i didn't follow the diet all week, i'd be physically punished as well as bread and water, and Master would be disappointed in me, which would be worst of all
<jen{SE}> *lol*, but that was not punishment that was play :-)
<BLISs201> but a personal trainer doesnt punish if you didnt work out that day
<BLISs201> a personal trainer knows itsall on you to have the discipline, its not onhim/her
<jen{SE}> unless He happens to be Your Master :-)), i go to gym with Master
<mist-Carole> (mist:) i'm a submissive, the punishment for ME is knowing that i didnt' do well. one meal of bread and water is enough for me, thanks
<BernieRoehl> I think a good Dom knows that too, BLISs201
<BLISs201> thenwhy would a good dom punish for not following a diet?
<jen{SE}> agrees with mist-Carole
<mist-Carole> (Carole says:) well, Bliss, a personal trainer can "punish" you by making you do extra exercises to make up for your mistakes, is there much of a difference if you HATE exercising?
<BernieRoehl> Because that's because what the Dom and the sub have agreed to, Bliss. If the submissive feels that the threat of punishment will provide added (and needed) motivation, so be it
<jen{SE}> we/ submissives/slaves are utimately responsible for our own behaviour, our desire to serve and please is what drives us, not the threat or promise of punishment
<^trufriend> but would that not start to physically put you in some risk mist-Carole, as far as the diet is concerned.....
<BLISs201> tyhats my point jen, thats why i dont understand punishing someone for apersonal growth issue
<mist-Carole> (Carole says:) I doubt that one meal of bread and water is gonna kill mist, but it WILL make her remember to submit the menu!
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) if I didn't need the guidance, i wouldn't be a submissive. plain and simple
* BLISs201 loves her son, and ifhe was overweight i wouldnt DARE punish him if he didnt stick to a menu...i'd find other ways of trying to motivate *him*, not get him to do what i wanted
* autumn`breeze{JFC} nods
<^trufriend> i know one meal isn't going to...iwas referring to a week's worth of bread adn water....
<mist-Carole> I doubt highly that would EVER happen, unless she was deliberately pushing him, and why the HELL would she do that?
* bottoms_up38 smiles... evening people ;)
<^trufriend> forget i asked
<jen{SE}> so back to the discussion, chronic discipline problems and why
<BernieRoehl> That raises another question.... is chronic misbehaviour the result of insufficient guidance by the Dom?
<miss_marigold> Hi bottoms up ...
<`melody> if in the agreement between Master and slave there is to be discipline.... that is individual... its as individuall as each pairs interaction... what works for me may not work for you....
<jen{SE}> insufficient guidance or insuffcient play???
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) sometimes it could be, sometimes it could be the result of the submissive being unhappy in the relationship and needing to lash out
<jen{SE}> is the submissive using bad behaviour to get scened
<Kilted_One> or lack of communication on both parties??
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> could beboth jen{SE}
<`melody> noone can judege or dictate...
<mist-Carole> (Carole says:) gee, KO, you read my mind... if people would TALK to each other, a lot of times these discipline problems would disappear
<dalian> perhaps if it is in the chronic stages..i'd tend to agree with mist-Carole
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> Dom might not have time for sub
<jen{SE}> agrees with KO & miss_marigold
<^trufriend> if there are cronic discipline problems, then maybe a few things need to be looked at! whether or not the pair are compatable, whether or not the methods are suitable, whether or not the roles are apropriate...
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) if He hasn't got time for her, He shouldn't have a sub
<jen{SE}> oops should ahve been mist-Carole :-)))
<Kilted_One> could also be a difference of personal desires.....both wanting something the other is not wanting
<mist-Carole> (Carole continues tru's statement:) whether or not the goals they have set are REALISTIC...
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> good point mist-Carole
<^trufriend> leads to a lack of good communication between the partners
<`melody> some time in a couple one evolves at a different rate than the other.... sub may be saying slow down please
<mist-Carole> If the expectations between the couple are set too high, it can lead to problems as well... for instance, they work out between them "WE WILL PLAY TWICE A WEEK" and that just isn't realistic, due to scheduling... well, the sub feels let down, and the Dom feels pressured....
<jen{SE}> behaviour problems should never chronic, we all bad days, if the problems are chronic then chronic problem with the relationship
<BLISs201> agrees with jen
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> chronic problems go deeper
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with jen
<Kilted_One> good point jen. exactly what I was leading to
<BernieRoehl> I think we all understnad that people have good days and bad days (both Doms and subs)
<BernieRoehl> But when the good days outnumber the bad... there may be an underlying problem
<jen{SE}> oops BernieRoehl i think You mean when bad out number good :-)))
<BernieRoehl> Oops!
<BernieRoehl> Yes, jen -- thanks :-)
<jen{SE}> or do You enjoy punishing????? :-)
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> perhaps the chronic problems were always there
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<jen{SE}> *lol*
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> just took time to come out
<BLISs201> what if its the subs motis operandi to be punished?
<BLISs201> if thats what turns his/her crank
<jen{SE}> then she is not a submissive
<BernieRoehl> Well, the seeds of a relationship's ending are often found in the beginning
<mist-Carole> (mist says:) well, Bliss, then the Dom should realize that
<jen{SE}> but that is my opinion
<miss_marigold> Maybe they are embarassed to ask to be "punished" for fun and need help to feel comfortable asking for attention in more acceptable ways?
<bottoms_up38> hmmmm i was told that submissives fail on purpose to get punished.. to have it proven to them that they are worth the effort, etc.. that they are loved. i didnt agree
<mist-Carole> good point miss_marigold... it is VERY hard to "ask" for play... it's sort of ODD to say things like "Sir, would you tie me up and whip me please?"
<BLISs201> ok then maybe theyre not submissive, but so what? what of thats what theyneed? to feel like a badlittle boy that needs p[unishing?
<jen{SE}> they should not be asking to be punished in place of true caring play
* ^trufriend sneaks onto Sardaukar_'s warm lap and wiggles til she's comfy
* bottoms_up38 smiles at mist-Carole .. why is it hard to ask for play?
<mist-Carole> (mist:) because a "good submissive" is not SUPPOSED to ask for that.
<mist-Carole> (mist:) she's supposed to leave it up to the Master to decide
<arhiannah{G}> "good" by whose definition?
<arhiannah{G}> what if i'm begging for it?
<BernieRoehl> I've had relationships where "punishment" became the *reward* for good behaviour -- she would earn her discipline sessions by being well-behaved
* autumn`breeze{JFC} i ask .. i either get no or perhaps if i am good
* BLISs201 knows quite a few "subs" who really get off on being the bad little boy
<mist-Carole> or the brat
* bottoms_up38 smiles to breezy.. me too
<arhiannah{G}> i'm pretty good at begging...ask Bernie...he's seen me do it ;) lol
<jen{SE}> If a slave is feeling that play is lacking, part of open communication is asking and bringing her needs to her Masters attention , final decision is still His
* BernieRoehl smiles at arhiannah{G}
<BLISs201> andhow is that scene believable for them if theyhave been on their best behaviour?
<mist-Carole> yes jen, but the problem is that quite frequently, the subbie "assumes" the Dom can read her mind...
<mist-Carole> or can take subtle hints, which Doms tend to be blatantly oblivious to... :)
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i have needs they may be every nite of the week but ...LOL
<miss_marigold> If you're not 100% comfortable with your own desires, sometimes you might try to make someone do these things to you without having to admit you want it.
<BernieRoehl> A lot of people do that before they acknowledge their own interests in D/s, miss_marigold, and it can lead to some pretty seriously disfunctional relationships. When they do finally say "i am submissive, and i need this" they can begin having healthier relationships
<mist-Carole> miss_marigold, that's why I use the checklists... because it's easier to write things down than say them out loud sometimes
<jen{SE}> a scene is a scene for pleasure for fun, it should not be punishment, two worlds apart
<janiz> evening Aall, just trying to figure out the topic
<arhiannah{G}> i don't have to *make* Him do anything...he's quite willing to fulfill my desires...
<miss_marigold> I'm sorry. I didn't phrase that well.
<jen{SE}> *lol*@ mist-Carole ... can't They, damn i've been worried about blocking me thoughts for nothing
* BernieRoehl smiles at miss_marigold
<BernieRoehl> No problem -- I'm just expanding on your thought, miss_marigold
<dalian> i like the checklists cause no one can see me blushing while i write...lol
<jen{SE}> slaves do not have checklists
<mist-Carole> see, I (Carole) KNOW I'm psychic and all my subbies needs are in front of me, I just ignore them.... :P I know it's hard to ask, because I've been on both sides of the fence, and it can be AS HARD (as a Domme) to tell a subbie to scene, then to ASK to scene, as a subbie
<^trufriend> i need to go....some asshole just hit my car and knocked it about 40 feet!!!!
* BernieRoehl hugs tru as she rushes off
<BLISs201> sheesh
<miss_marigold> Thank you BernieRoehl ....
<bottoms_up38> never hard to ask for a scene for me *grin*
* BernieRoehl smiles at bottoms
* autumn`breeze{JFC} still waiting for bottoms_up38
<dalian> well i consider myself a slave...and i would expect a checklist initially...in the early communications stages...at least until the collar is placed on my neck...then the checklist goes out the window...by that time i would assume a more deeper relationship has evolved
<BernieRoehl> So, a question for the Doms -- have you ever had to deal with a submissive who had chronic discipline problems, and how did you handle it?
<jen{SE}> Master says the submissive that has a chronic discipline problem is not around long
<mist-Carole> I think (though it's never happened to me yet) if it was a chronic problem, if I couldn't talk to them about it and correct it, I would have to release them.
<Kirspin> Some of us probably didnt handle it too well Bernie
<Kilted_One> that is a good point jen......chronic dicipline as we have said normally points to chronic problems with the relationship
* BLISs201 wonders how pro doms deal with clients who want to be bad little boys/girls?
<mist-Carole> as well, jen, if the chronic discipline problem follows the DOM, rather than the sub, then you can see it by the number of collared subs they've had in the last 2 weeks...
<jen{SE}> that is role playing not discipline
<jen{SE}> no different then me wearing school girl kilt when getting a caning...
<BLISs201> how do you tell the difference?
* autumn`breeze{JFC} nods at mist
<mist-Carole> pro-dommes don't usually TAKE collared subs, do they? (not too familiar with the pro-domme circuit)
<BLISs201> ohw e're talking about discipline problems with collared subs only?
<Sir-Edward> Bliss if you don't know, you just don't get it...............
<BLISs201> sorry wasnt aware
<BernieRoehl> So... the solution to a chronic discipline problem is to end the relationship?
<mist-Carole> well, I always thought that pro-dommes do "one-off" scenes, and can have repeat business... but I don't know much about it.
<BLISs201> actually Sir-Edward i was thinkingthat a dommight very well have a collared sub who needs to be a bad girl more frequentlythanthe dom likes...to me, thats a discipline problem
<mist-Carole> at which point, if I WERE a pro-domme, I'd punish the bad little boy...
<Kirspin> I think that would be the ultimate thing to do, if nothing else worked
<BernieRoehl> Any other Dom/Domme comments?
<`abi> I would think Bernie, that would depend on the cause of the chronic discipline problem
<BLISs201> butthanks for your public criticismanyway :)
<Sardaukar_> so W/who learns from that?
* bottoms_up38 wouldnt run into a problem like this... i seek Doms that dont offer a punishement i like... including play, attention, etc *smiles*
<Sir-Edward> Folks there is a big difference between pro Fem Dommes and Male Doms and M&F subs.The whole mind set is different.
<Kilted_One> I would say that is one solution only Bernie and then only after there has been attempts to communicate the reasons for the situation
* ^rhiannon^ agrees with Sir-Edward..
<BLISs201> of course Sir-Edward,i dontthinkany of us said they were thesamebut thetopic wasnt explained tometo be ONLY about maledoms andf em subs
<nimeesha{JFC}> seems to me that if the sub is acting up on purpose a thing for the Dom to try is to punish her by not punishing her..a child will seek out negative attention...so if you give good attention for good behaviour and ignore bad behaviour it usually curbs the bad behaviour
* BernieRoehl nods
<BernieRoehl> Well, that might not be a bad not to end on
<Sir-Edward> A scene or roleplay for a male sub with a paid pro Domme does not fall into the term punishment, their scene is usually scripted & more often than not is a form of role play.................
* Kilted_One frowns...didnt think suck limitations had been set...was about chronic dicipline problems without the narrowing distinctions???
<BernieRoehl> It's just getting on toward 10 pm. Anyone have any last minute thoughts?
<BLISs201> agreed Sir-Edward, but asi said,i can see a femsub ina non pro relationship being *into* being a bad girl more frequentlythan the domlikes, and to me thats a discipline problem
<dalian> what was the most effective punishment administered?
* cushlamochree runs and places a smiley face on K_O, thinking He is far more handsome that way
<bottoms_up38> dalian... something the sub doesnt want i would say ;)
* Grizzly_AL agrees with bottoms_up38
<Sir-Edward> If she is into being a bad girl that is role play if the Dom doesn't like it the relation ship is not based on much compatability.........
<dalian> obviously...but i was looking for examples from the Doms
<cushlamochree> most effective punishments seem to be allowing the sub some time to theirself, ignoring so to say so they can dwell on their errors
<bottoms_up38> actually... it would be the subs saying what they didnt like dalian, yes? it is according to our own individuality
<BLISs201> *into* being a bad girl more frequentlythan the domlikes...not "dom doesnt like it"
<BLISs201> sheesh
<Grizzly_AL> ok dalian here is one for you taking away something that the sub/slave likes ie not talking to her or not tuching her for a time
<BernieRoehl> Well, folks, I'm going to close the log for tonight's discussion. Please feel free to continue chatting informally.
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated!
* ^rhiannon^ waves hello to kashina{LB}..hugzzz
<Sir-Edward> It still doesn't fit.....
<mist-Carole> thank you Bernie, for moderating a really tough topic
<Kirspin> A very difficult topic Bernie
<cushlamochree> thanks, Bernie, Sir, a job well done
<Kilted_One> then maybe you have the wrong Doms so far only bliss and should keep looking for one with similar outlooks
<dalian> thanks Bernie
<kashina{LB}> since the toopic is closed..........
* kashina{LB} tacklesmooches BernieRoehl and giggles
<nimeesha{JFC}> *hugs* Bernie
<arhiannah{G}> thanks Bernie :)