January 16 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Here's the automatic message I've set for the
channel...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion.
Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm.
Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say
something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We
recommend using raptor.ab.ca.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag.
Tonight's discussion topics is 'Femdoms and Maledoms -- Similarities and
Differences". The moderator tonight is Zee. Enjoy the discus
<BernieRoehl> And now, over to zee...
<`Rodent`> bbl
<`zee> good evening E/everyone.  welcome to the 3rd discussion
of the new year.  The topic tonight is FemDommes and
MaleDoms/similarities and differences. 
<`zee>  as a female submissives one of the differences that i
see is the way a male sub serves the Mistress for example, foot worship,
shoe worship, footstools and massages are openly expressed where i have
not seen that as a common expression with female subs to thier Doms.
<`zee> is there obvious differences or are they only through
different ways of Domination?
<TheWolfe> are we discussing submissives or Dominants?
<BernieRoehl> Can someone else log the discussion... my screen
just went funny, so I have to reboot (I'm typing blind right now...)
Thanks...
<`zee> we are discussing Dominants..Males/Females TheWolfe Sir
<`slutshado`> i'll stick something out here.....there are IMO
many male Doms that do not take FemDommes seriously but feel they are
submissives in denial
<TheWolfe> lol
<`zee> i know many like that too `slutshado`.. a FemDomme is
just a submissive who hasn't met her right Master yet!
<`slutshado`> exactly
<`zee> thanks `abi
<Life_Quester> `slutshado`....I suspect that you would get a
vivid denial from the average Domme....
<DarkAngel^> lol ,,, and many Dommes think Doms should kneel to
them also
 * |Karen thinks they aren't Doms, just male chauvenist pigs 
<`slutshado`> actually Life_Quester Sir...i haven't and it
purturbs many of them
<`zee> i dont agree with that though many Male Doms may think
that
<`slutshado`> the attitude i mean
<`slutshado`> very true DA
<DarkAngel^> well my Domme friends keep trying
<`zee> are FemDommes more cruel in their approaches?
 * SirLancelot` nods to Karen
<`zee> as in CBT and such play?
<Life_Quester> The demeanor of the Domme "may" be just
reflective of what is seen that the sub "reuires"...as well as wants.
<DarkAngel^> so perhaps the attitude is more universal
<`slutshado`> what are canes on a femsub.....or clamps
 * lil`bitch{GW} feels that FemDommes appear to be more strict
and cruel mainly as a way to prove themselves to be as Dom as Male Doms
i think
<`slutshado`> some can lil`bitch{GW}
<`zee> so Life_Quester Sir.. malesubs may have different desires
than female and therefore the Dommes are so inclined
<`slutshado`> but then some males go a *little* overboard as
well
<Life_Quester> I really do not think "Dominant" is gender
specific.....
<Jaz^> I disagree...I think their aproach is different. I feel
FemDom's have nothing to prove to Male Doms
 * lil`bitch{GW} nods
<`zee> how is their approach differnt Jaz^ Sir?
<`zee> different
<`zee> is it harder for a FemDomme to maintain a Dominant role
when in a D/s love?
<Jaz^> I feel that they look at dominance from there own
perspective and that the creative that they show is from with in. 
<`slutshado`> i don't think it is zee
<`zee> a Mistress fairly new to the lifestyle told me once that
She was having difficulty with the transition from her male sub to the
bedroom, in that She felt a lose of control in certain positions and had
a hard time getting her mind around that.
<`zee> Jaz^ Sir..do You think FemDommes are more creative than
MaleDoms or that They come at it from a different angle Sir?
<|Karen> Andrea Dworkin theorizes that the very act of the penis
entering the cunt is a dominant act...because the penis is the active
member and the hole is passive
<Life_Quester> then she "might" not be a genuine Mistress
`zee...in that domination id not limited to one venue or another....but
universal....or at least should be
<TheWolfe> Andrea should get on top
<|Karen> I can understand how it might be hard for a new FemDom
to get her head around the transition in the bedroom...
<Jaz^> Thats an interesting thougth karen
 * `zee thinks some thoughts of Karens quote and smiles to
herself
<`zee> i agree Life_Quester Sir... i do wish their were some
Ma'ams here to answer for themselves
<Life_Quester> |Karen....with all due respect....the "hole" can
be analogized as a cave...and the penis as an "explorer"....and here it
is that cave that is threatening....
<`abi> I'm not sure that's always the case Life_Quester....I
think it's often difficult for couples to move from one role to another
within their relationship and maintain a consistancy of Dominance and
submission ... and I don't think it's only FemmeDommes who encounter
that as an issue
<`zee> may i respectfully ask the Sirs here if They feel they
are different in their Domination than FemDommes
<TheWolfe> I think we are all different as are submissives
<|Karen> She theorizes from a broad sociological
perspective....in other words, not necessarily true for individuals
...but something we all grow up with as part of our background
consciousness to overcome as our Dominant or submissive personalities
come out
<Jaz^> Myself...not at all....
 * elegantsarah agrees with abi
<Life_Quester> t/me acknowledges |Karen's perspective.
<`zee> i understand what she is saying Karen..old lessons
learned are a challenge 
<|Karen> Dworkin's perspective, Life_Quester...not necessarily
my own
<TheWolfe> do we have any Dommes here tonight?
<`zee> no Sir..those i spoke to are not here at the moment
 * `zee shrugs and smiles
<NastyNick> what exactly is the topic?
<`zee> is Patricia Marsh an example of a FemDomme or an
ExtremeDomme?
<TheWolfe> ask Patricia
<|Karen> what is an ExtremeDomme, zee?
<`zee> the topic is MaleDoms and FemDoms/similarities and
differences
<`zee> more of a Sadist Karen
<|Karen> a Top?
 * `zee nods to TheWolfe Sir and smiles
<TheWolfe> how can we discuss Patricia?
<`zee> You are right Sir
<|Karen> I'd be careful with 'Sadist'....it's still a clinically
defined term
<`zee> have any submissives had experiences with a FemDomme and
a MaleDom?
<ti`mara> i have
<NastyNick> have you zee?
<|Karen> I've had only the tiniest bit of exposure to
FemDommes..
<`zee> would you share what you felt ti`mara?
<TheWolfe> en (My submissive has)
<`zee> no NastyNick Sir..not in the submitting role..only
through friendship
 * ^TechnoMage^ agrees with Karen - I much prefer terms like
"sensation play" myself - less of a negative connotation...
<`zee> TheWolfe Sir.. did en find a difference?
<en{TW}> i did find some differences
<ti`mara> i found some differences but alot of the same
 * `zee smiles to en
<`zee> would you share them with us?
<en{TW}> some gender related differences included....(these are
just my experiences) 
<en{TW}> female dominants seem to be more verbal
<`zee> more verbal in what way en{TW}
<en{TW}> also female Dominants seem to be focused on the image
they portray and how that adds to the "scene"
<en{TW}> talking during a scene....verbal humiliation etc...
<`zee> as in Their attire en{TW}? on the image portrayed?
<en{TW}> male Dominants (specially in private play) seem to be
less focussed on the image 
<en{TW}> clothes, demeanor
<en{TW}> but i think that is universal among the sexes...who
spends the most money on clothes, hair makeup etc...
<en{TW}> women do
<en{TW}> whether vanilla or bdsm
 * `zee smiles
<`zee> probably en{TW}
 * shadodancer is obviously not universal
<en{TW}> i also think that may have something to do with the
differences between male and fem subs....men are visual more than women
generally
<ti`mara> but i think some Dommes are more sentual then the Doms
(my opinion)
 * Life_Quester listens to en{TW}....I personally have not seen
the need to wear a label or clothing to signify domination....as it is
hoped that the persona will take care of that...naturally.
<|Karen> I've had very little experience with FemDommes, but my
impression is they tend to be more monogamously oriented then MaleDoms
<ti`mara> sensual that is LOL
<SirLancelot`> Would you say that male Doms want their subs to
anticipate more .... therefore less speach?
<en{TW}> yes, Lifequester, but we all use different things to
add atmosphere to a scene....male Doms use toys the same way women use
clothes...it's just style
<en{TW}> i think men are generally less verbal
 * ti`mara agrees with en
<NastyNick2> what does monogamy have to do with it?
<en{TW}> also, female Dommes verbal interaction does create a
different but just as viable anticipation :)
<`zee> so through the gender traits that is where FemDommes
differences come from?
<|Karen> that is, those FemDommes that are not
Professionals....and another difference is that more FemDommes are Pros
then MaleDoms...
<|Karen> NastyNick2, it's just another difference that I'm
offering up to the room...
<`zee> there is more of a demand for Domanatrix than for
Professional Doms
<TheWolfe> because they can Karen
<TheWolfe> women won't pay...they don't have to
<shadodancer> men can't TheWolfe?
<katiias> they dont?
<TheWolfe> because there is a market
<katiias> whre
<katiias> where i mean
<TheWolfe> no market for male pros
<katiias> no?
<katiias> mebbe there should be...
<^W|CKED^> It would be an extremely small market, if at all
 * katiias chuckles
 * ti`mara looks up
<TheWolfe> there are a few
<|Karen> I could theorize that men are more willing to pay for
sex/Domination...as a means of controlling the women...
<TheWolfe> very few
<ti`mara> where??
<TheWolfe> you could
<katiias> yas i want to know where too
<Life_Quester> you mentioned cruelty at some point `zee....does
the room "really" think that the Domme tends to be crueler with their
charges?
<TheWolfe> but that is off topic Karen
<|Karen> women rarely have the same financial means to hire
ProDoms
 * ^W|CKED^ chuckles
<katiias> why Karen, how much are they????
<iz{^W^}> $90 half hour
<iz{^W^}> budget escort 
<katiias> thanks iz
<katiias> LOL
 * katiias will save up her pennies
<iz{^W^}> look it up in your yellow pages
<katiias> london ones???
 * katiias grins
<ti`mara> hey kat wonder if they will give a two for the price
of one???
<`zee> cruel i was thinking of the CBT torture that i see quite
often in Their play and their attitude to their malesubs..though it is
probably a desired request as well
<iz{^W^}> nope that is toronto
<NastyNick2> but yet they spend more money on clothes makeup and
hair than men, much more
<katiias> ahh
<ti`mara> i will go halfs with you kat if they do
 * katiias picks up ti and heads to toronto
<katiias> okee dokee
<TheWolfe> I do genital torture
<`zee> is it on the same scale as CBT TheWolfe Sir?
<TheWolfe> clt *smile*
<TheWolfe> clit labia torture
<`abi> I'm not sure zee, but I'd expect there is as much
variation in that regard with FemmeDommes as there is with MaleDoms ...
they don't all come out of the same mould
<TheWolfe> most definitely
<Life_Quester> point well taken `abi
 * `zee grins
<`zee> guess i have only seen extreme play than! lol
<earthmyst[ES]> hello there
 * |Karen nods to `abi, knows of at least one MaleDom who enjoys
having his sub do Cock and Ball Bondage on him...
<ti`mara> i think every Dom is Different and every Domme is
Different
<TheWolfe> agreed ti`mara I mentioned earlier that we are all
different
<TheWolfe> submissives included
<`zee> i agree ti`mara... all I/individuals!
<ti`mara> it is like every sub is different male or female 
<`abi> not quite what I meant Karen, but I imagine there is
variation in that regard as well
 * |Karen nods 'was just another example of variety within'
<^TechnoMage^> Perhaps a large part of the difference is that
(to stereotype!) a male sub is seeking a REVERSAL of typical power
roles, and a fem sub seeks an extension of the traditional roles...
<ti`mara> but i do believe that (with out sex) one should at
least experience both a Dom and Domme
<`zee> that is an interesting observation ^TechnoMage^ Sir
<TheWolfe> why ti`mara?
<ti`mara> just two different ways to play TheWolfe Sir
<ti`mara> the same as if it was two different Dom's
<TheWolfe> ok
<`zee> so ^TechnoMage^ Sir.. are the expectations different
towards a FemDomme from her submissive than the other way around?
(traditionally)
<|Karen> in my limited experience....I found that the FemDomme I
experienced was more _sensual_ then any of the MaleDoms I've been with
 * `abi smiles...but they're a little like snowflakes ti..you're
never going to find two the same :)
<iz{^W^}> asks a question ... other/besides sexual/gender
preference ... do people have a preference to a Dom or Domme and if so
why?
<`zee> en had spoken of more verbal humiliation!
<ti`mara> thats right abi so why not try to experience as much
as you can
<ti`mara> depends on my mood iz
<ti`mara> like anything else in life
<^TechnoMage^> From what (little) I know of male subs...  I
think perhaps they crave humiliation as a part of the experience.  Which
isn't for every female sub...
<`zee> i have only played once with a Domme... it was different
in the approach
<Jaz^> In what way zee
<`zee> before W/we started She was attentive to little
things...like did i wish to take my heels off to be more comfortable
<`zee> She was mindful of the nipple clamps and making sure they
were alright
<shadodancer> think the approach has alot to do with the Dom/me
involved
<TheWolfe> I think it is very difficult to draw any comparisons
or differences without also looking at submissives
<Jaz^> You mean you have played with Dom's who have not shown
such attention when using toys?
<`abi> a more nurturing approach zee?
<`zee> She was alert to things such as where my sex was placed
on the horse and making sure my breasts were parted
<iz{^W^}> good question iz thanks yes i have something to say
about that ... prefer male Doms ... emotionall for me .. i can only make
a connection with a male dom therefore the preference3 .. with female
dommes .. its purely physical ...grin
<`zee> no Jaz^ Sir.. though i knew she had experienced the
clamps herself and knew how much tension to apply
 * `abi smiles at iz...good answer ;)
<`zee> yes `abi..but from a female nurturing approach though
<`zee> like the heels... the hair
<TheWolfe> so males don't care zee?
 * `zee laughs
 * katiias chuckles quietly
<`abi> can you describe the male nurturing approach for us zee?
 * Life_Quester knows that `zee can easily respond
<`zee> no TheWolfe Sir.. Her care did come from her knowing how
things felt
<`zee> ahh `abi lol
<`zee> i don't like to generalize i was just speaking of one
Domme and my time with Her
 * `abi smiles....different but equal I'm sure zee :)
<TheWolfe> the same could have been said about 2 Doms
<iz{^W^}> zee is it like the old saying ... only a female who
where high heels can know how another female feels in them?...grin
<`zee> but i have found that Males don't think of women maybe
being more comfortable out of their heels during a night
<NastyNick2> do you prefer male Doms to female zee?
<TheWolfe> so the difference is shoes
 * katiias lafffs
<`zee> male Doms Sir.. to be owned by One
 * `zee laughs
 * BernieRoehl chuckles
<ti`mara> i would say it is like she knows because she is female
<`zee> exactly ti`mara!
<NastyNick2> you are owned by one now, or wish to be owned by
one zee?
<TheWolfe> lol
<ti`mara> never mind Domme or sub she knows what our bodies go
through
<`zee> that is not to say MaleDoms can not become aware of those
things as well though
<`zee> i am owned by One Sir.. Life_Quester!
<Life_Quester> zee is the moderator here....not the subject of
an Inquisition.
 * `zee laughs
 * ^TechnoMage^ sees how a FemDom could relate where a Dom could
not.  The "pony" for example....  (Though he remembers vividly a certain
bicycle accident...)
<`abi> I wonder if some of the difference relates to
protectiveness
<`zee> the pony ^TechnoMage^ Sir? would You expand on that
please?
 * ti`mara smiles
 * `zee breaths a sigh of relief
<`abi> run Astra, run! :)
 * MistressAstra puts on her boxing gloves :)
 * `zee laughs
 * katiias grins
<`zee> woohoo!
<ti`mara> yes!!!!!!!
<TheWolfe> I invited her *smile*
 * `abi chuckles
<^TechnoMage^> Meant it as a joke BUT...   The pony or horse is
one type of activity that we as male Doms cant really experience - so
how do we gauge the degree of discomfort?
 * MistressAstra sorry i forgot;(
<shadodancer> calvalery is here :)
<`zee> welcome Ma'ams..thank goodness
<iz{^W^}> this is generalization to an extreme "females know
females better" ... on a generalization yes agreed ... but, there are
plently of Males who actually adore women and care enough about there
comfort to think about shoes
 * Ruffles^ growls at her isp..and is hoping she sticks
 * MistressAstra mentions theres lots of malepony trainers
 * Ruffles^ wonders what she missed
 * ^TechnoMage^ mentions that we're just getting even for the CBT
talk earlier!
<`zee> Ma'ams would You both care to address any differences You
see if Your Domination from MaleDoms?
 * Ruffles^ perks CBT
 * katiias grins at Ruffles^
 * Ruffles^ has several very good friends that are male
Doms...and to be honest I have not seen big differences ...cept the poor
guys can't do cbt
 * Ruffles^ probably talks to my subs more than my Dom
friends....
 * MistressAstra thinks male dom's incoroprate sex more into play
then female Domme
<`zee> so there is more verbalization..talk as in how Ruffles^
Ma'am?
<TheWolfe> why can't Doms do cbt?
<`abi> because we don't have the appropriate parts for them to
practise on TW
 * Ruffles^ grins at zee...perhaps a little more talking dirty
zee....
<Ruffles^> they could if they had male subs TheWolfe...was not
thinking I guess
<TheWolfe> the assumption made is that all male Doms are
straight
 * Ruffles^ realized that as soon as I typed it TheWolfe...my
mistake
<^W|CKED^> Or won't play with a male sub
 * MistressAstra male doms are predominatly hetro, but not all of
them are
<ti`mara> i find the same with Dommes too thought Astra most of
the Dommes are hetro too
<Jaz^> Question: Why does it seem that Dommes have more than one
submissive most of the time?
<^TechnoMage^> Good question - there are straight Doms and gay
Doms - but are there any BI Doms???  Don't know any myself...
<MistressAstra> oops in this channel i meant
<^TechnoMage^> off topic, but...
<TheWolfe> I have played with male submissives
 * Ruffles^ knows a Dom that is bi ^TechnoMage^ but he is not
from this area
<^W|CKED^> ^TechnoMage^: not sure - more than likely there
are
 * MistressAstra because i chose to Jaz, one sub isnt enough to
satisfy my needs, also i play with many subs but do not engage in sex
<`abi> it's an easy enough assumption to make, since there
doesn't seem to be much integration of the gay and straight BDSM
communities...at least not locally ... perhaps that would be interesting
to examine in a future discussion
<`zee> Jaz^ Sir..many Doms have more than one submissives as
well Sir... or play with more than one
 * Ruffles^ also has two submissives...but also know many male
Doms that do as well Jaz^
 * iz{^W^} laughs her ass off ... my ex is a bi male ... which i
agree with ... he also calls himself a dom...which i dont agree with
<Jaz^> playing and owning are two different things zee.. I too
"play" with more than one sub 
<ti`mara> i don't think that sex necessarily has to be put into
a scene i think you can play with out having sex involved come to think
of it i have only ever scened where there was no sex involved
<`zee> what are the similarities between the two.. many i would
think!
 * Ruffles^ wonders what the difference would be Jaz^ ?
<TheWolfe> but we digress
<`zee> Ruffles^ Ma'am.. do You think You are tougher in Your
play than most Doms?
<^TechnoMage^> agreed ti'mara - here in Manitoba our only
regular fet night has a strict no-sex no-genital exposure rule...  and
that does not seem to slow down scening at all...
 * Ruffles^ grins at zee well you have seen me play zee...and I
think in some respects I am...in the experienc of the group I am in...
 * MistressAstra are we lagging? or am i?
<`zee> yes Ma'am i agree with You there!
<`zee> in what way though Ma'am.. forgetting that i have seen
You play
 * Ruffles^ has very high expectations...but I also have very
willing subs
 * Ruffles^ thinks that service...without direction...I expect
that my boys will serve...at parties and at home
<MistressAstra> :)
 * Ruffles^ expects that service be done correctly and that
certain rules be followed...I have noticed that male Doms are not as
rigid as I...but that is not to say none are
<shadodancer> Shawn01....don't pm without permission...join the
discussion ok
<`zee> MistressAstra Ma'am.. do You feel Your are stricter that
most Doms You have known?
<Shawn01> how are you doing sweetslsave?
 * MistressAstra dunno bout that Ruffles^ , Gorean masters are
pretty tough on rules too
<TheWolfe> male submissives generally enjoy servitude also
 * Ruffles^ agrees with MistressAstra...I am going on the Doms I
have seen at private play parties..the ones that I play with
 * Ruffles^ would not say that mine enjoy servitude...in fact I
know for a fact that one does not ...but it is expected...the rewards
are worth it to him
<TheWolfe> strict in what sense
<MistressAstra> i think im lagging here
<Life_Quester> Male Doms "should" probably be more rigid in many
areas....as they have a side that tends to "over look" abberrations on
occasion.
<TheWolfe> some are more rigid
<`zee> a softer side Life_Quester Sir?
 * MistressAstra i am a pussykat zee, in some ways, im flexiable
on rule to a p[oint, but i have a point of grace anything beyond that is
just asking for trouble :)
 * shadodancer hands zee a soft pillow
<Ruffles^> strict in the sense it is expected...failure to
comply would have consequences
<TheWolfe> of   course there are consequences
 * ti`mara looks up at Mistress Astra -- great now you tell me
LOL
<MistressAstra> :P
<TheWolfe> I think we all have different expectations
<TheWolfe> different styles
<TheWolfe> because we are different
<`zee> it is slightly past 10:00 and i wish to thank E/everyone
for partaking in the discussion tonight
<Ruffles^> yes and there are not right ones or wrong ones...I
maintain if you are happy and your subs are happy you are doing it right
<TheWolfe> ok bye
<shadodancer> great job zee :)
<BernieRoehl> I'd like to thank zee for moderating tonight's
discussion.  Great job!
<TheWolfe> thank you zee
<ti`mara> thanks zee
<lil`bitch{GW}> thank you zee :)
<^TechnoMage^> thaks 'zee!
<Life_Quester> Excellent job `zee....as your mettle was clearly
tested under difficult circumstances...and was not found wanting.
<^TechnoMage^> thanks too...
 * Ruffles^ is sorry she missed it zee...am looking into a new
isp in the morning...grrr
<`zee> very welcome BernieRoehl Sir and E/everyone!
 * Jaz^ nods to zee excellent job
<BernieRoehl> I logged most of it, but had some computer
problems at this end.  If anyone managed to get the whole thing, can you
msg me?  Thanks...
 * BernieRoehl applauds zee
<shadodancer> i have it Bernie
<MistressAstra> nice job zee
<SirLancelot`> Agreed zee...great job
<BernieRoehl> Great, shadodancer!  Can you email it to me? 
<shadodancer> will do Bernie
<`zee> tks E/everyone
<shadodancer> gimme a sec to cut out the lurid pm's tho ok :)
<`zee> moderating is a challenge..lol
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, shado
<`abi> no! ... leave them in shado....share!
<katiias> LOL
 * BernieRoehl smiles
<shadodancer> didn't think you'd want me to abi *G*
<Life_Quester> Until later A/all...it was a true pleasure being
here. I shall look forward to My next visit. Be well. Ciao.