January 13, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our weekly discussion
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "S/M Burnout". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> The topic for this workshop came from a workshop I attended on the subject at Black Rose
<suzq{CK}> hi que`sarah
<que`sarah> Hey, everyone! Hi, suzq!
<BernieRoehl> The idea is that with so many events, so many play partners, and so much to do, it's easy for people to get "burned out" from the BDSM lifestyle
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
<Argonaught> pulls syren up onto His lap and looks forward to a good evenings discussion
<BernieRoehl> So... the first question is, has anyone here experienced that?
<pandora``> but you don't have to go to all of the events, or play with all who want to
* Gaston58 nods with pandora``. SOmetimes burnout "just happens", no?
<pandora``> only if you let it
<^^zaR^^> yes bernie,, transition from play to relationship to maintaining S/m within the relationship can be a tough road
<Argonaught> gets chat burnout but not S/m burnout (or at least I dont think so)
<oasis{Omy}> when i first came into the scene in my early twenties... i played too often.. traveled too much and eventually became overwhelmed.. slowly drifted away
* BernieRoehl nods
<BernieRoehl> For how long, oasis?
<syren[A]> there are so many ways to play & so many variations to keep things new
<xxendlessdesirexx> burnout, reached easy with constant involvement in the lifestyle, one can choose to slowen there pace or one sometimes chooses to step back and take a breather..
<^^zaR^^> sometimes you need to set a time aside for normal play or interactions, so that you dont grow tired of the S/m side
* jewel`{F} smiles brightly
<oasis{Omy}> played hard for about three years straight everyweekend... .. the rest was a blurr.. its odd i remeber people from those days but not from where lol
<^jen^^> burnout i think is relative to the need.. i need the play therefore i don't feel i burnout... i miss it when it is not there
<Argonaught> just go out and buy a new toy or somthing normally fixes that though
<SIR-SILLVER> heaart of gold4 agrees wth
<^jen^^> i play/played most everyday and never felt burnout... leather butt yes.. burnout no *lol*
<^^zaR^^> with S/m, sometimes knowing what to expect will take away the edge
<Argonaught> jen its a constant then so you would miss it if it was taken away
<oasis{Omy}> i belive it may be where i was at that time stresses on all levels.. i lacked a blance
<BernieRoehl> (By the way, sorry for the confusion with the double channel announcements... got a new computer, it's a long story...)
<xxendlessdesirexx> <--- believes many bottoms have become burnt out with there exploration and searches to obtain there goal of finding there one
<Gaston58> what about tops who burn out?
<^jen^^> i think what happens is more Where do i go from here.... not burnout
<xxendlessdesirexx> of course tops do as well, i ment from a bottoms perspective, i was hopeing a top would add theres :)
<Argonaught> is it burnout or lack of repetoir?
<Argonaught> spelling
<^jen^^> the body/mind will only accept/handle so much... but the need to play is still there, the need to expand is still there
<BernieRoehl> There have certainly been times in the past when I've felt a bit burned out. Two or three munches a week, plus a fet night or play party, starts to take its toll after a while
<oasis{Omy}> BernieRoehl.. may i inquire..{please choose not if you so desire} if you have ever come close to burn out
<syren[A]> thats where different levels of play comes in isn't it?
* oasis{Omy} answered lol
<^jen^^> *lol* @ Bernie, that is not S/m burnout, that is life burnout...
<Argonaught> syren and I are learning new techniques each session
* BernieRoehl is slightly psychic, it seems :-)
<BernieRoehl> Good point, jen!
<`abi> I think that ebbs and flows are natural and that the trick is learning to retain the core of whatever the lifestyle means to you as you ride out those ebbs and flows
* Kilted_One thinks it is Bernies tyres that are burned out
* dalian is always impressed by Bernie's stamina
<^jen^^> Berning the candle at both ends... *pun intended...
* BernieRoehl chuckles and agrees with KO :-)
<BernieRoehl> Thank you, dalian :-)
<BernieRoehl> But for me, it's a bit like anything else that I really enjoy -- it's possible to do it to excess
<Argonaught> has seen someone badly blistered by a candle tries to keep syren's hidden
<^jen^^> is is excess or doing it for the wrong reasons... to meet a need it is not excess to meet others needs at the expense of your own is where burn out happens
<xxendlessdesirexx> question to those who have expierenced burnout--> what did you do to cope?. step back and breath, slow down, or scream grab the nearest toy and go crazy?..lol
* ^jen^^ sorry is it excess is what i meant
<Argonaught> especially where she wants it to be applied
* BernieRoehl smiles at xxendlessdesirexx
<oasis{Omy}> wb A/aal
* xxendlessdesirexx smiles
<BernieRoehl> Personally, I took a bit of a breather, but that's because I knew I had to
<xxendlessdesirexx> i do not believe i could ever step away for a while from the lifestyle.. slow down.. i dunno if i could do that either..
<^jen^^> i do not believe we can burnout if we are meeting a need, i believe burnout happens when we go to places for the wrong reasons.. eg.. social acceptance, ego etc..
<xxendlessdesirexx> drive my friends crazy and obtain a soap box session in return,...now that i can and always do..lol
<^^zaR^^> burn out doesnt have to be bad
<BernieRoehl> I know many submissives encounter burnout when they first get into the scene. They suddenly find they can actually do all the things they've read about and fantasized about -- so they do! All of them. All at once.
<^^zaR^^> it can be a simple self indication that its time to try something different, not extreme
<Argonaught> thats fright BernieRoehl not buyrnout
<^^zaR^^> lets define what burn out is,,
<^jen^^> *smiles sweetly at Bernie*,, *grins*,Ya know what's coming next... and who assists those darling newbie submissives in experiencing too much too soon,,, Dominants *lol*
<BernieRoehl> Good idea, zar. Give it a go
<Argonaught> yes zaR
* BernieRoehl smiles back at jen
<xxendlessdesirexx> i believe one should expierence burnout though sometime in there life in relation to the lifestyle, to learn,learn from and expierence all aspects, be it the pros and cons of being in the lifestyle, too little or too much..
<Argonaught> first define "burnout"
<^^zaR^^> well if i was to say i was burned out from work,, it would be the standard replys,, dont feel like going there, frustrated at whats there, desire to seek greener pastures perhaps
<Argonaught> my definition is there is no place further to go
<Argonaught> thats not burnout zaR thats a new beginning
<xxendlessdesirexx> you can expierence burnout but i don't think anyone will ever truely be defeated by it
<^^zaR^^> if i was burned out from having my toes pinched even though i once really liked them pinched, it would just be an indication maybe i should have somewhere else pinched
<BernieRoehl> That's a good definition, zar -- that's how I feel when I'm burned out from work too
<Argonaught> stagefright has nothing to do with burnout
<^jen^^> there is allways a further place to go... burnout is "no desire" to go anywhere.... you have had enough...
<^^zaR^^> so it really comes down to ,,why am i feeling this way and what am i going to do about it
<{OT}cariye> burnout is caused by stress
<Argonaught> or over use
<xxendlessdesirexx> stress can be good though *grin*
* syren[A] giggles-doesn't like toes pinched but like the idea of being pinched someplace else ;)
<BernieRoehl> Good observation, {OT}cariye
<^^zaR^^> used toe pinching as a demo
<Argonaught> syren loves the flogger Im afraid to over use it on her
<^^zaR^^> tho i do like to pinch
<^jen^^> disagree {OT}cariye burnout does not have to be stress related
<{OT}cariye> thanks its psych 101
<Argonaught> there are only so many ways to use a flogger
<xxendlessdesirexx> cold be physical burnout as well mental
<Schadde> I think if you're 'burned out' (whatever definition you guys come up with ;p) from something you enjoy, then you'll just rest, give it some time, then come back when you're ready and recharged.
<^^zaR^^> it doesnt have to come in a standard prepackaged list,, it can be anything that you liked once, now not seeming so,, likeable or satisfying
<oasis{Omy}> thinks a lack of a feeling of fufillment has a good part to do with it
<xxendlessdesirexx> subbies rely on there masters for a recharge after burnout and vice-versa.. :)
<SIR-SILLVER> and heart of gold4 soak up this wisdom
<suzq{CK}> i think burnout has as many definitions as there are ppl here
<BernieRoehl> The guy who ran the workshop at Black Rose had some really interesting points to make, and a lot of it was from his personal experience
<Chasenangel> I would disagree, oasis.
* BernieRoehl tries to find the notes
<^jen^^> i love filet mignon, but ya know i don't want it every day,,, why classify it as burnout.... can it not be just called boredom.. tired,, not tonight dear i have a headache....
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<Argonaught> but to do the same thing ad nausium is just lack of iniative
<^^zaR^^> it doesnt have to be a crash and burn,, it can be boredom
<^^zaR^^> it can be annoying
<Schadde> That's what I'd say it is Jen. Now I want some fillet-mignon too... :\
<Argonaught> whats rthe words of the song freedoms just another word for nothing left to loose?
<BernieRoehl> ... he was very active in the San Francisco leather scene, and was going to (or hosting) parties almost every night. He found he was playing more than he ever had in his life, but was too tired to really enjoy it. He said it started to seem like a second job after a while.
<Argonaught> his batteries were flat
<xxendlessdesirexx> that is what is interesting in the lifestyle i think, there are topics to cator to each taste out there, if one feels burnt out, perhaps he/she may direct there interest to another topic, in relation to the lifestyle that does not demand so much physical/mental and then just pick up where one left off later.. one doesn't need to leave and turn away ..
<Argonaught> its routine not burnout
<^^zaR^^> and everyone began to look the same perhas,, the makeup abit too gauche,,,and the champange doesnt didnt taste as sweet,, he was burned out
<^jen^^> Bernie,, that is what i was trying to say earlier, when we play for the "wrong reasons", not for the need,,, that is where the problem happens, if play occurs for play sake, not to fulfill an inner desire .. it is wrong
<Argonaught> look no two orgasms are identical
<dalian> could that not be just going past physical and psychological limits over an extended period of time?
<xxendlessdesirexx> good call jen :)
<Schadde> lol
* BernieRoehl nods
<Argonaught> exactly jen
<^^zaR^^> thats a very good point dalian
* candie``` agrees with ^jen^^
<Argonaught> actually no
<xxendlessdesirexx> if one plays for play sake one expierences burnout as well sooner or later, for lack of what they truely desire..
<^jen^^> nods, nods
<Argonaught> there are just so many positions and ways to "play" but enjoyment need not always be orgasms
* xxendlessdesirexx says trust me, been there done that...
* ^jen^^ after to disappear for a bit..... sorry
<^^zaR^^> so if you really need this fix jen, it will never get boring or repititious,,
<^jen^^> have to even *damn those errant fingers*
<^jen^^> yepp,,, that is what i believe zar :-))
<xxendlessdesirexx> but then...sometimes someone just needs play, because the lifestyle has become too much of the old same bump and grind though right?
* syren[A] was burned out in the vanilla lifestyle-it had no meaning, her life has a purpose now
<^jen^^> playing hard and long for over a year and SE and i still love and need it,, still feel a thrill everytime we go to the cross
<Schadde> You're not going to get much in the way of brunout if you're enjoying yourself.
<Argonaught> would sticking IV needles through syren's nipples nightly be burnout or lack of iniative?
<BernieRoehl> What I found especially interesting at the workshop was that when he asked who had experienced burnout at some point, more than half the hands went up
<^^zaR^^> yes,, of course, and your not burned out
<`abi> what about the hands that didn't go up Bernie? ... what were they doing differently?
<^jen^^> not if it is what you both desire Argonaught
<BernieRoehl> Good question, abi. Perhaps most of the rest of us were too burned out to raise our hands! :-)
<xxendlessdesirexx> question... are some of us classifying burnout the same as boredom?.. and are they alike or totaly different?
<BernieRoehl> Seriously, though, I think everyone who didn't but up their hands was at least aware of the possibility of burnout, and were hoping to avoid it
<Argonaught> syren would yopu enjoy repeditive pleasure and pain night after night?
<oasis{Omy}> sometimes its a kid in the candy store... we so desire to experience that other side and become so excited when we find a safe community in which to experience.. we forget to take a breath on occasion
<^^zaR^^> burnouts dont have to be a bad thing,,you can step back and rest, and go back at it full tilt boogie
<BernieRoehl> Boredom was listed as one of the symptoms of burnout. Also going to a play party and not playing (though that didn't strike me as all that unusual).
<xxendlessdesirexx> what like getting up going to work comming home going to bed, getting up going to work...lol ( no i already hate that)
<dalian> you could very well love the job you do daily...but if you're at it for 12 hours a day for a year...your physical and psychological limits are going to manifest in burnout
<{OT}cariye> burnout is a feeling of helplessnes, unsatisfaction(with job...situation)
<syren[A]> i enjoy the way You mix Master, i never know what to expect next
<BernieRoehl> Well said, dalian
* Kilted_One has been "left out" and "carried out" and "yelled out" but not yet burned out....only been to one fire play workshop and that wasnt covered at it
<^^zaR^^> ;)
<syren[A]> it keeps everything exhilarating that way, in my opinion
<Argonaught> and we have been active how many months syren?
<^^zaR^^> i think we need new things in our life,,constant stimulation, whether it be physical or mental/emotional,,it doesnt mean we have to go elsewhere to solve the problem
<syren[A]> almost a yr now Master :)
<Chasenangel> Chase: Something I've noticed is that I'm doing things now that, 6 months ago, I wouldn't even have considered doing. Now it's the norm for us... I think the problem lies in the fact that over time, you become desensitized to things and want to move to a higher level.
* xxendlessdesirexx thinks she should purchase "in case of burnout insurance" for both herself and her master (should she find him)... so it'll be like a "no fault" accedent and no one is held accountable for missing out ..lol
<Chasenangel> What happens when you can't think of where to go next??
<^^zaR^^> you come to a chat like this and ask
<^^zaR^^> ;)
<Chasenangel> : )
<`abi> there are always new places to go Chasenangel ... and for me, ritual is part of what prevents burnout
<Schadde> You need stimulation of some sort. A new idea to get things going. :)
<Argonaught> Chasenangel isnt that training
<{OT}cariye> I think that because of the nature of SM play ..the fear and the exhilaration ...it causes the body to constantly feel strong emotions...the "fight or flight" theory ...I think that the body gearing up with these feelings then coming down can cause burnout to happen
* rhiannon{KO} agrees with abi..;)
<^^zaR^^> sometimes a simple blindfold that can change the scene, something to break up the "i know what comes next" feeling
* Kilted_One thinks that your dead Chasenangel (only reason that I could think off that would result in no more thoughts)
<Schadde> That's the biggest I think Zar
<xxendlessdesirexx> anyone ever realize burnout before and have a fallback plan in case now because of it?...
<BernieRoehl> Personally, I've learned to pace myself, and to realize that if I don't play tonight, it's okay -- I can play tomorrow, or the next day
<Argonaught> there is a plethora of input and different themes around the same style and methods
* xxendlessdesirexx nods and smiles
<Schadde> You're pacing yourself Bernie? I haven't noticed that before. hehe
<BernieRoehl> There was a time when I didn't want to pass up even a single opportunity to play.
<Argonaught> why do you think that physical exhaustion is on par with mental burnout?
* BernieRoehl smiles at Schadde
<xxendlessdesirexx> burnouts are a good wake up call to those not realizing it
* ^^zaR^^ thinks we have reached a burn out here
* Chasenangel agrees
<Schadde> So where are we going with this? It's looking like most of us think we just need some rest and time, then you can pick up again where you left off, or go in another direction. Anyone think otherwise?
<BernieRoehl> One thing I remember wondering at the workshop is why people let themselves get burned out. If they realize it's all just too much, why don't they simply back off, or try something different for a while?
<^^zaR^^> How about how your partner is feeling while you need to step back
<Chasenangel> Chase: That sounds about right to me...
<xxendlessdesirexx> getting burntout to many is a new lesson i believe... many think they are energizer bunnies and they can go on forever, many have yet to encounter that lesson
<Argonaught> look. How many ways are there to use a flogger? so if I just used a flogger in our scenes syren would be bored.. similarly if we did the same sex act evey night we'd be divorced
<`abi> because it isn't a faucet Bernie ... you can't turn it on and off at will ... especially the D/s components
<SIR-SILLVER> is waking up in the morning with a wooden spoon or spatchula a message
<Argonaught> its not burnout its lack of iniative
<Schadde> Well variety is certainly anti-burnout material. heh
* Chasenangel agrees with Argonaught
<Argonaught> exactly Schadde
<Schadde> You have your favourites, certainly, just try not to overuse them.
<xxendlessdesirexx> awareness is the advil-anti-burnout of the headache that can be the lifestyle at times..
<syren[A]> W/we've yet to repeat the same thing twice, its always different
<Argonaught> I fight it every inch of the way
* Kilted_One has used a flogger for several years and is still finding new ways to use it. the only limiting factor is your mind!!!
<Argonaught> yes syren
<syren[A]> & W/we always search out new toys & techniques
* xxendlessdesirexx believes she has been doing something right if she has not stopped her search for her one in the past 7 years and still be looking at the lifestyle with happy eager anticipation
<SIR-SILLVER> every kitchen has utensils with no end of joy in them
<syren[A]> it could be something as simple as dressing up like a christmas package ready to be unwrapped :)
<Chasenangel> angel: i use to worry very much about burnout, but then i met people who've been in the scene for decades... somehow it's not quite so frightening anymore : ) Even if people get burnt out, they're almost always back for more after a time.
<Argonaught> who knew that a flashlight could turn your abdomen red if switched on
<syren[A]> lol
<Argonaught> brb
<`abi> that's true angel ... if it's part of you it doesn't go away, even if *you* do
<xxendlessdesirexx> *can picture us all together in 50 years in the BDSM burntouts chat for seniors
<Schadde> ack
<dalian> I don't necessarily equate burnout with boredom...for me, burnout occurs with extended intensities put upon the mind and body...it's the body's way of saying we're pushing the edge beyond our capabilities
<BernieRoehl> So do most people find it's just about new experiences, new sensations, new ways to use a toy or new toys to try?
* xxendlessdesirexx one big happy burnt out "i told ya so" family..lol
<Schadde> I'd say so, Bernie
* syren[A] giggles
<`abi> we've got that covered xxendlessdesirexx....you hook the nipple clamps to a table and roll your wheel chair back and forth
<xxendlessdesirexx> no sometimes even with change and expierences and sensations one just get's overwhelmed with so much that one...get's burntout..
<dalian> i can't speak from a bdsm perspective but take a runner for instance...the addiction to the adrenalin rush eventually puts them out of commission for a day or two once in a while
<xxendlessdesirexx> lmao @ abi... ooo i wanna be 50
<Argonaught> imagine were all in the same BDSM old age home with nurse ratshit
<Chasenangel> That's disturbing, abi... :)
* syren[A] wants an auto erotic chair frem pes instead of a wheelchair please & ty
* Kilted_One wonders how many ppl like chocolate and only try a type of chocolate bar once and then move on to another and another and another without finding a favourite that they keep coming back to again and again and again
* Argonaught rolls His eyes
<xxendlessdesirexx> sometimes some don't want to try new things and eat the same bar though KO
* Argonaught wants a Terminator violet wand
<syren[A]> can't i dream Master?
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
* rhiannon{KO} rolls Argonaught eyes back to Him.
<syren[A]> lol
* candie``` giggles
* syren[A] slaps hand over mouth to suppress outburst
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
* Argonaught places the rolled eyes between syren's thighs
<syren[A]> ty rhiannon{KO}
<syren[A]> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..:)
<syren[A]> benwa balls, thank You Master
<^^zaR^^> we are talking about S/m,, pain can be tiresome, the body itself may burn out and go into protective mode
<xxendlessdesirexx> lmao
<Argonaught> your favourites I believe
* syren[A] BIG SMILE
<SIR-SILLVER> hands xxendlessdesirexx her ass back
* xxendlessdesirexx didn't know her ass was missing
<SIR-SILLVER> u said so
<xxendlessdesirexx> lol
<dalian> good point zaR
<BernieRoehl> I think dalian's runner example was a good one. I know that when I feel burned out (not from BDSM, particularly, but from any activity) that it feels much like she describes it
<Argonaught> well if i only used pain it would be boring for Me syren takes it and wants more prehaps but I must pace and regulate the "dosage"
<Schadde> I had to scroll back to find that. :) I'd say you've pretty much summed it up Bernie.
<^^zaR^^> so an educated participant must be aware that their partner may be signalling a red call (burn out signals)
<xxendlessdesirexx> warning: trying to come up with more points to S/M burnout may cause sever burnout symptoms incl:..perversion, fiddeling,accedental bootage and a horrible wedgie due to squirming in your chair
<BernieRoehl> zar's earlier question was an interesting one... what if one partner feels burned out, and needs to take a break for a while -- what about the other partner?
<Argonaught> thats more intuition though isnt it
<^^zaR^^> (disclaimer: LS &zaR are quite imaginitive and not in burn out mode !)
<BernieRoehl> (notes that zar and LS are far from burned out... but her question is a valid one)
<syren[A]> seems to me that in a good relationship that the other partner would be understanding & supportive
<xxendlessdesirexx> the partener can either recognize there partener as being burntout and be patient and be attenative, as they would relize the same would be done for them, or one could amuse themselves with other activities (with master's permission) in the meantime
<xxendlessdesirexx> the partener can either recognize there partener as being burntout and be patient and be attenative, as they would relize the same would be done for them, or one could amuse themselves with other activities (with master's permission) in the meantime
<KW-Brit> OI OI Savaloy, as we say
<Argonaught> exactly syren and a good knowledge of each orther's limits and nuances
<_hemo_> can burnout stem from unrealistic expectations i.e. the sessions will allows be mountaintop experiences. Each experience must be at least as good as the last if not better
* BernieRoehl glances at the clock, notes that there's about 10 minutes left in the discussion
<syren[A]> if there was a lack of understanding & support perhaps it is the relationship that was burnt out as well
<Argonaught> true syren
<BernieRoehl> Yes, _hemo_ -- the trap of perpetually rising expectations
<KW-Brit> Apologies Kilted One,
<oasis{Omy}> open communication may aide in slowing or preventing burnout...
<xxendlessdesirexx> Oooo i know one can burnout just from pure waiting...without even lifting a finger, i think that is the worst felt burnout ever..
<BernieRoehl> One submissive I knew years ago compared it to an addiction -- always needing a more intense scene to give that same rush
<Schadde> Don't people strive for open communication in this type of area in the first place?
<Chasenangel> interesting...
<PanheadAL> i agree xxendlessdesirexx
* xxendlessdesirexx smiles
<Argonaught> look there are only so many ways to paddle someone so a varied session where different aspects of our lifestyle must be introduced at different intensities
<`abi> and if a rush was all one ever needed...then that could be problematic Bernie ... fortunately, I think that most people get more out all this than just a rush
<xxendlessdesirexx> overall to each there own, as long as one is aware of burnout, one will surely find something to avoid it, should they really desire it..
<Argonaught> if you cram everything into your mouth at once your a glutton
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with abi
* syren[A] is sometimes a glutton then ;)
* syren[A] = greedy
<Argonaught> penetration piglet perhaps puss but not a glutton
<syren[A]> lol
<^^zaR^^> i think expressing simple appreciation for what your partner is doing to or for you can be a big fixer,,and a simple act to provide
* rhiannon{KO} agrees with abi also, W/we can't play 24-7, there has to be something else that we do where we can get a thrill.
<xxendlessdesirexx> *shakes her head*..lol
* xxendlessdesirexx believes this topic has about come to it's end....... mental brainstorming burnout
<^^zaR^^> lol
* BernieRoehl smiles
<_hemo_> excellent observation rhiannon{KO}
* Chasenangel calls the coroner...
<BernieRoehl> I actually don't mind wrapping things up a bit early tonight
* xxendlessdesirexx smiles kindly
<BernieRoehl> So... anyone have any last-minutes comments?
<Kilted_One> Argonaught, some of us experiment until we find something that we like to do an then work on perfecting it. This might mean that the scene is played over and over several different times till we feel that we have taken it as far as we want to take it, sometimes something comes along as a distraction and we move on, but there are always new ways to "do something"
* xxendlessdesirexx stands corrected
<PanheadAL> lol
* BernieRoehl smiles
* xxendlessdesirexx believes this has been an excellent topic of disscussion
<Schadde> I can't think of anything else to add. I think we aired it all
<xxendlessdesirexx> excellent topic Bernie
<Argonaught> I love to experiment on syren but always use caution and push just a little harder mindful of our mutual pleasure
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's five to 10, so let's wrap it up. I'll close the log here.
<^^zaR^^> very,, good imput too everyone
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated! Lots off good observations and thoughts.
<_hemo_> thanks again Bernie for your excellent work
<BernieRoehl> My pleasure, _hemo_
<Kilted_One> Thanks Bernie