January 12, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "BDSM and the Sacred - Connecting Kink and the Spiritual in Our Lives". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Ron> Safer that way... I haven't had enough dinner tonight, and my tummy's grumblin' ;)
<northernslut> laughs
<Ron> Heyas, MistressS.
<northernslut> hi MistressSarcastica
<Ron> _Now_ it's gettin' busy...
<Ron> Is it over...?
<earl{MS}> what has kink to do with spiritual?
<Kilted_One> nope hasnt even started
<Kilted_One> what do you think earl{MS}??
<Ron> I mean the bot's busy-ness. ;)
* Ron whacks himself over the head and reminds himself to stay OT...
<Kilted_One> he will sit and record every move that we make and then report back to Bernie with the logs at 10
<earl{MS}> my spiritual beliefs do not preclude kink in any way
<Ron> Hmm... you don't see any connection between the two things?
<Kilted_One> is there times when you need inner strength earl{MS}, for example during a powerfull scene??
<earl{MS}> yes, see kink and the spiritual going hand in hand
<drauma{MzT}> self-flgelant orders during thmiddle ages are one example of a spiritual form of BDSM
* Ron nods
<Ron> The mystical experience and the descriptions of 'flying' are surprisingly similar in some ways.
<drauma{MzT}> the trance a submissive is thought to enter when subspace is attained is a state of mind most spiritual orders seek toa tain
<drauma{MzT}> the concept of a power exchange is something akin to tantric sex
<Ron> Mm-hmm... tho the goal is not always the same.
<Ron> _Has_ anyone 'seen God' while in subspace?
* Sweet1` hasn't....
<earl{MS}> depends upon your definition of God
<Sweet1`> it's more an intropspective thing
<drauma{MzT}> do you go into subspace Sweet?
* northernslut can honestly say no...
<Kilted_One> do you equate a supreme being with spiritualizm then Ron??
<Sweet1`> yes i do
<Sweet1`> and can/will completely zone out
* Kilted_One can attest to that (in regards to Sweet)
<Ron> Not at all. Most people I know do, but I manage quite handily without gods at all.
<northernslut> do religion and spirituality always go hand in hand though?
<Ron> Spirituality is a way of thinking, IMO.
* northernslut nods in agreement
* Kilted_One nods in agreement with Ron
<Ron> They can, but they don't need to.
<northernslut> i agree that i do find there is a spiritual experience when i scene... to a limit. but mainly due to the fact it is one of the few times when i can find a total calmness and inner peace..
* Ron nods.
<Ron> That's one of the first steps along the path to what's sometimes called 'the Godhead.'
<Ron> It'
<Ron> oops...
<earl{MS}> northernslut, well said
<northernslut> i have to admit ignorance of that term... (clearly has lots to still learn)
<Ron> It's a rare and precious state of mind. Most people never get there...
<northernslut> ah
* Ron is known in some circles as being something of a mystic. ;)
<drauma{MzT}> perhpas more slaves than bottoms seek what gets you there?
<Sweet1`> why would that matter drauma{MzT}?
<Ron> 'The Godhead' is about 'oneness with the universe.' Putting it crudely and inaccurately.
* northernslut smiles, thank you for clearing that up for me Ron
<Ron> Ni problema.
<drauma{MzT}> I think, perhaps, that a slave is more likely to be worshiping the Dominant owner, who presumably is ever-present in the slaves mind, and this worshipful attitude helps the trance...
<Ron> Kind of a focus, sorta thing?
<drauma{MzT}> nods
<Sweet1`> worship doesn't work into it...perhaps, trust, and a peace with oneself
<drauma{MzT}> worship could enable that trust
<drauma{MzT}> lovers rapture
<Ron> If you define 'worship' as 'love unquestioningly and uncritically' then it works rather nicely, ne?
* northernslut nods in agreement, when scening.. i admit.. the One i am scening with comes into it very little.. i am almost always focussing only on the pleasure/pain/situation/and acceptance of who/what i am .. worship plays a minimal if not non existant part
<northernslut> but everyone is different, so i accept it could work that way with others.
* Ron nods again.
<Ron> It would depend on your relationship with your Dom/me, wouldn't it?
<Sweet1`> subspace/zoning can also happen with casual play if the level of trust/knowledge and ability to let oneself go are there
* northernslut nods in agreement
<earl{MS}> think its more the freedom rather than the worship that helps promote the calmness
<Ron> Can the freedom not be so alarming that it might drive one into _needing_ something to be... not worshipped, but something like it.. from someone?
<earl{MS}> when there are no decisions to make, there is no responsibility, like a larfe weight is lifted, has a calming effect
<earl{MS}> very relaxing and pleasant
<drauma{MzT}> I prefer being bound, usually by cuffs when MT n I play, I am decidedly NOT free physically when i play
<earl{MS}> no not physical at all, totally mental
<drauma{MzT}> it is my gift to her
<northernslut> i prefer physical bindings too, but mentally... in a scene.. i am gone..lol i hardly notice them after a point
<Sweet1`> the bondage just helps hold me up <g>
<earl{MS}> being safe and secure in someone elses care, like being an infant again, without cares or responsibilities
<northernslut> lol Sweet1`
<drauma{MzT}> I tend to go somewhere during a good scene, but the stimulation always grounds me
<yummier> the bondage frees me and allows me to float easier
<Ron> Brings up an interesting point... traditionally, spiritual fulfillment is supposed to be wholly mental, but we have people here attaining part of it solely thru physical means...
<drauma{MzT}> solely?
<Sweet1`> no, that's not true Ron
<Sweet1`> it is a blend of both
<drauma{MzT}> not for me, the mental part of my play is huge
<Sweet1`> it starts before the physical with the mental and that continues all the way thru
<Ron> OK, there's a psychological aspect to it, but it seems like the physical activity is what drives it?
<Ron> Otherwise one could enter subspace while lying quietly in bed...
<Sweet1`> the mental drives the physical
<Sweet1`> and yes that can happen too!
<northernslut> it can... easily
<Ron> !!
<Kilted_One> maybe the physical "pain" only helps introduce the endorphins that give the high that takes the submissive where she wants to go???
<earl{MS}> Ron, the physical only serves to reinforce the feeling of not being in control
<drauma{MzT}> fire play, enema, flogging, tickling, 'whats this?' the only thing they all have in common is mental
<Ron> Hrrm...
<Ron> There's something here that goes _WAY_ beyond whips and chains...
<earl{MS}> Ron, yes, with this one
<Ron> ... as if that aspect is ultimately unimportant, almost an anomaly...
<earl{MS}> being bound so one can not move means you have not physical control, add to that giving up mental control, and one is free to just be, to just experience
<Ron> I've done that, but it takes effort when one has to maintain control one's self.
<northernslut> of course.. but that stands for all BDSM not just scening... BDSM above all to me is a state of mind... the physical.. comes as an added bonus, and at times. a method of expressing it is all
<Ron> Then to some extent the whole _point_ of it is spiritual...
<Ron> ... on the sub's end, anyway.
<earl{MS}> northernslut, the mental side is an ever present experience that frees the slave in a way that can not otherwise be experienced
<northernslut> on my end possibly, but we can't generalise.. BDSM is too much of a personal experience. i would be shocked if any two people were in it for the same reasons
<drauma{MzT}> consider the pony, gaged wiht a bit, unable to speak human. Blinkered or even blindfolded. Hands bound in mittens or hooves, useless, feet shod in hoves. Reins are the ponys guides, all signals are non-verbal
<northernslut> exactly earl{MS}
* Ron smiles.
<Ron> I tend to over-generalise... looking for that common ground for all spiritual experience...
<drauma{MzT}> yet, the pony is expected to be very physical, very active
<Ron> Which is the essence of being a horse... non-human both in thought and action.
<drauma{MzT}> horses do recognize some aspects of human speech...
<Ron> Yes... but we don't know that they process it the way we do. It's almost certain they don't.
<drauma{MzT}> they have some human behaviours, perhaps those which are common to many other mammals
<Sweet1`> and those we choose to read that way
<Ron> Yup. There's a raft of species non-specific behaviours we all share.
<Sweet1`> because we want to see it that way
<earl{MS}> for this one, the mental and physical, both have the same goal, to not be in control, but have another take that control and the responsibility that goes with it making this one totally free of it, that leads to a relaxation that this one has never experienced in any other way
<drauma{MzT}> reverting to a sort of childhood
<earl{MS}> drauma{MzT}, often think of it that way
<Ron> Are We _missing_ something? Is there something going on here we should covet?
<drauma{MzT}> sometimes quite literally, as in age-regression play
<earl{MS}> and do not believe this is a human only kind of thing
<Sweet1`> coming back from zoning out, i go thru a child-like innocence, a period where i cannot complete sentences, tie my own shoes or anything
<Kilted_One> interesting thought drauma{MzT}....do you require spiritualness to get into the headspace of being a pony gurl or boy?? and I dont just mean dressing for the part??
<Ron> Can you elaborate, earl?
<drauma{MzT}> perhaps we should seriously consider forming a church of the holy flogger?
* Ron has been accused of starting cults before...
<drauma{MzT}> not the right person to ask on that Kilted_One, I am curious bout pony-play, but havent been there yet, cept in cyberspace
<earl{MS}> Ron, all social animals seem to have a pecking order, why should humans be any different
<Ron> Well, humans _do,_ because they inherited them from their ancestral primates. But is there more than that? That's what I ofetn wonder.
<drauma{MzT}> a number of religions use trials of endurance and other gualitys to test people
<drauma{MzT}> to provoke self-awareness
<Ron> I find I need to be in a kind of spiritual space to fully express my animal side, simply because I'm not physically completely like that self.
<Ron> The ordeal as a method of spiritual awareness goes back thousands of years...
<earl{MS}> it helps clear away the clutter in the mind
<Ron> Is it a matter of simply accepting the hierarchy that does it, earl? Seems to be what you're implying?
<earl{MS}> sweet surender
<drauma{MzT}> but, why a heirarchy?
<drauma{MzT}> life is never so simple
<Ron> Because that's what pack/herd behaviour is based on.
<drauma{MzT}> on my high school chess team I played fith board alternate, was considered the weakest player
<Sweet1`> it's simply a matter of being in an environment, both mental and phsyical, that allows you to completely let go
<drauma{MzT}> yet, there were individuals ranked higher whom I regularly beat
<Ron> Humans complicate hierarchical structures; it seems to be the curse of sentience.
<drauma{MzT}> it was against the field that the ratings we used to position tem members placed me where I was
<drauma{MzT}> put a musical instrument in my hand and I can usually find a way to make music with it
<drauma{MzT}> handy with tools am I
<drauma{MzT}> do not ask me to compose poetry, i have no skill for that
<drauma{MzT}> I can improve it sometimes
<earl{MS}> for a simple rhyme, just give a bit of time
* Sweet1` wonders what direction the discussion is going in
<Ron> NNW
<Sweet1`> ty
<northernslut> laughs
<drauma{MzT}> the point being, in a bards guild i would place somewhere highly, in an entertainers guild lower, in a plumbers guld not at all
<drauma{MzT}> yet, I might be considreed in each of those hierarchys
<Ron> My point exactly. HGuman society is too complex for simple structures to work, but they _need_ those structures.
<drauma{MzT}> MzTyger colalred me, I am her alpha submissive
<drauma{MzT}> some how I ranked highly in her hierarchy
<Ron> ObBDSM - The Dom/sub relationship is the ultimate simple hierarchical structure.
<drauma{MzT}> I would that I could find an employer as easily...
<Ron> Alpha sub? Bit of an oxymoron there, surely?
<Ron> The sub seems to act more like an omega than anything else, IMO.
<drauma{MzT}> *shrugs*
<earl{MS}> there is beauty in simplicity and what could be simpilar than being a slave
<drauma{MzT}> not 24/7 Ron Sir
<Ron> Don't get me wrong; I'm not being critical. I just don't understand all the ramifications ofd your rleationship, is all.
<northernslut> i am not sure i would agree on slavery being simple....lol
<drauma{MzT}> I am entrusteed with complex tasks, and expected to use initiative at times
<Sweet1`> even in a wolf pack with the alpha males and other males that are higher in order, there is still an alpha female
<Kilted_One> we only have a few minutes left of the formal discussion and we seemed to have drifted a little off course...any last thoughts to close it out and bring us back on track??
<earl{MS}> northernslut, what could be simpler than having no decisions to make?
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Kilted_One> "beat ya" bot
<_dove> lol
<northernslut> laughs
<Ron> I think what we've determined is that there's _no_ separation between the physical and spiritual _and social_ aspects of BDSM...
<drauma{MzT}> we have?
<Kilted_One> would all agree on that statement by Ron??
<Ron> At a guess... ;)
<drauma{MzT}> I think we can say that there can be...
<Ron> Yes... good qualification...
* Ron is overgenetalising again...
<Ron> oops...
<Sweet1`> gotta love freudian slips <g>
<drauma{MzT}> soem submissives dont understand the metaphysics, just wanna float
<northernslut> it all comes back to it's a personal choice and experience and varies from person to person.... and C/couple to C/couple...lol
<earl{MS}> think we have found a spiritual justification for O/our behavior
<Ron> Testify, brother! <ggg>
<northernslut> earl... i wasn't ignoring.. i will answer that one when discussion is over ;)
<drauma{MzT}> LOL
<Kilted_One> does anyone practice any form of ritual to help with their own spiritualizm??
<Ron> I sit by railway tracks and watch trains go by...
<Ron> Seriously!
<drauma{MzT}> the click of my restraints, and sometimes a formal statement of who we both are and why we are sceneing
<earl{MS}> time with Mistress in the hot tub prior
<drauma{MzT}> the whole preperatory thing, shower, sometimes enema, packing the toys...
<northernslut> i can honestly say i dont unless you count my thoughts when i wake and look in the mirror and think to myself that i am lucky to have accepted being the slave i am
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.