January 9, 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Consensual Embarrassment and Humiliation". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<bondagebabe> wow...what a lively discussion!
<Lucy> evening all
<Switcharoo4u> Is embarrassment the same as humiliation?
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe taps her fingers waiting for someone with some expertise to speak....
<DarkAngel^{a}> me too
<bondagebabe> lol DA
<shadoe> okay.. why does the embarrassment and humiliation have to be consentual?
<Switcharoo4u> everything should be consentual.
<Lucy> isn't consensuality a cornerstone ofeverything we do? seems like a no brainer to me
<bondagebabe> SSC, right?
<DarkAngel^{a}> why ?
<Switcharoo4u> what is hard for me is to what level of severity is consentual?
<DarkAngel^{a}> my slave concented to become my property ,, after that ,, it's up to me ,,, not necessarily concentual at all\
<dana^^> would think its because of how personal humiliation can be...
<shadoe> well if you've signed on for a full time D/s relationship, shouldn't you trust your Dominant to know what's good and right?
* motoki thinks so
<dana^^> so agrees with that shadoe
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe wishes it were so
<jewel`{F}> very much so would say shadoe
<bondagebabe> isn't there a big difference between what a slave and a submissive sign up for as far as consenual?
<Lucy> if one has agreed to that sort of relationship, yes...that is giving consent to be humiliated, IMO
<DarkAngel^{a}> bondagebabe ,,, that isnt the discussion though
<shadoe> so given all that.. what do people feel is humiliation?
<DarkAngel^{a}> humiliation to one is not humiliation to the next
<dana^^> i dont think the difference is very much... then again it depends on your definition of slave and submissive
<Lucy> right DA, which is why the question was irrelevant to begin with
<shadoe> true .. that's why i asked DA
<DarkAngel^{a}> Humiliation Play can be many things ,,, the forbidden friut
<DarkAngel^{a}> Hulimiation can be the 'emotional beating"
<jewel`{F}> for some being made to be naked or near naked and played publicly can be humilation, to others it is a rush
<Switcharoo4u> can we start with a list of different ideas for humiliation play?
<DarkAngel^{a}> Humiliation can be "anti society" turn ons
<Lucy> right jewel...humiliation can also be contextual...what is a rush in on context can be humiliating in another
<motoki> whatever humiliation is, it's far more effective when it occurs between people who have a preexisting connection and degree of intimacy
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> humiliation can be so many things that I doubt we could list all the things that could be done
<dana^^> something as simple as being called a sl** can be a form of humiliation... and delicious
<Lucy> or for some that can be a confirmation of a side of themselves they embrace
<`abi> I think that for some, jewel...humiliation or at least humiliation as it is practised in a BDSM context *is* the rush
* motoki wants to see if being called a slut will humiliate her
<DarkAngel^{a}> how about listing examples of PHISICAL HUMILIATION ?
<DarkAngel^{a}> slapping a face
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> golden showers
<shadoe> that's a good one
<DarkAngel^{a}> spitting
<Switcharoo4u> I guess you are right Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> puppy play for some is humiliating
<jewel`{F}> i do belive that humilitation play is best practiced between 2 that know each other very well
<DarkAngel^{a}> that is role play huliliation Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}
<dana^^> being a footstool?
<bondagebabe> i agree with jewel and motoki...how can you know what is embarrassing for me until you know me?
<DarkAngel^{a}> good one dana^^
<shadoe> i love being a footstool!
<motoki> yes i agree with puppy play
<`abi> I think that the *what* of humiliation is irrelevant ... it's the motivation and the response which determine what is humiliation
<jewel`{F}> being used as funiture at all
<bondagebabe> except for the fact that everything used to be embarrassing for me
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> agreed abi
<Lucy> right bondagebabe...i don't find serving as furniture or slapping to be humiliating at all..yummy? you bet, but not humiliating
<motoki> eating out of a bowl, especially in front of others who are all eaeting normally - that would be huiliating
<DarkAngel^{a}> ok ,, lets list types of VERBAL HUMILIATION
<DarkAngel^{a}> slut
<dana^^> the thought of it did for me Lucy.. but the reality was so different...
<jewel`{F}> being berated or letured in public
<`abi> I want to see both your hands on that keyboard DA
<Lucy> so it would have been a good mindfuck then, dana ;)
<motoki> good one jewel
* DarkAngel^{a} winks at `abi
<dana^^> so cant handle that one jewel...
<DarkAngel^{a}> cunt, whore, bitch, fuck toy, puppy, girl, boy, whimp, limp dick,
<motoki> having an aspect of my physicality emphasized in public, but that's edgy cuz it can easily backfire
<jewel`{F}> sometimes it doesn't even have to be verbal or physical, something as simple as a look can set me off
<bondagebabe> limp dick? can't see that one affecting me...lol
<motoki> me too jewel
<dana^^> absolutely Lucy... but then it was handled so well... and i was in a deep slave mindset...
<DarkAngel^{a}> that is an emotional trigger ,,, you have to know where those 'might' be ,,, and try to avoid them
<shadoe> i think my humiliation is close to what jewel is saying.. especially if berated in public
<Lucy> not only that but you have to be willing to repair any "potential" damage that might occur as a result of humiliation
<shadoe> but i think a lot of people would feel the same about that one
<DarkAngel^{a}> male subs/slaves can very much get into Humiliation Play ,,, such as cuckolding ,, forced feminization etc
<motoki> ya, you have to be willing to suck the hind tit for awhile if she takes it badly LOL
<bondagebabe> true...and how it is said is a big thing as well...if you call someone slut in a berating manor, compared to "you are my lovely slut" it has two different meanings
* Lucy giggles at motoki
<dana^^> doesnt like the public lecture ... i crumble at a look of displeasure...
<motoki> you know, some humiliation is really throb-enhancing, other forms are really embarrassing
<DarkAngel^{a}> not if it is said in the grocery store bondagebabe
<Lucy> context
<jewel`{F}> having a physical reactin to something pointed out can be embarassing as well
<bondagebabe> true DA Sir, context as well
<`abi> that's why I think motivation and response are the germane things shadoe ... because I doubt that the motivation behind humiliation play is to leave the bottom feeling diminished
<motoki> i get really freaked out if my performance (for example, the way i serve) becomes a huge focus
<DarkAngel^{a}> I once led a sub thru a toronto mall ,,, store to store ,,, using her ponytail as a leash ,,,, we got some good looks
<motoki> i prefer it to blend in
<dana^^> or if you're called that outside of a D/s environment...
<Lucy> ohh, motoki i can relate to that...not the serving specifically..but that acute fear of failure
<shadoe> very true abi
<motoki> yep, exactly
<DarkAngel^{a}> not necessarily `abi ,,,, that might be exactly what is saught
<bondagebabe> do you mean take them down a notch, DA?
<motoki> a really vulnerable time for me is when i've just woken up and am all "morning-ish" with disheveled hair, etc -- am very vulnerable to comments then
<`abi> DA ... I sincerely doubt that you use humiliation play to destroy self-esteem
<Switcharoo4u> the acute fear of failure can help enhance performance.
<DarkAngel^{a}> male subs are known more for using such humiliation to 'put them INTO' their sub space
<dana^^> put them in there place ?
<shadoe> humiliation is something that can be an emotional landmine.. and it's probably very smart to do a ton of 'research' on the person you intend to practise it on first
<Lucy> true Switcharoo4U....it can also create perefectionists who are meticulous in their execution of just about anything
<DarkAngel^{a}> to force their submission ,,, sometimes people want to be put there
<motoki> <--kinda likes that idea
<shadoe> male subs are notorious for scripting their own humiliation scene.. ergo i'd say they are going to be ok
<dana^^> me too...
<shadoe> not to generalize of course
* Lucy didn't know that about male subs
<krista-F> i agree shadoe....i can take almost any kind of physical pain...but i am very much a wuss when it comes to the emotional stuff
<DarkAngel^{a}> no, I dont `abi ,,, but when I researched Huliliation Play for the Workshops I presented ,,, I was very surprised that that is exactly what some seek it for
<shadoe> but female submissives are a whole other genre
<motoki> and hwole other gender too
<`abi> and most certainly 'attaining a submissive headspace' is a valid use of humiliation
<Lucy> does anyone find objectification humiliating?
<motoki> when i'm not throbbing from it, yes
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe raises her hand
<shadoe> LOL bondagebabe.. i like that
<DarkAngel^{a}> definetly different between males and females ,,,
<`abi> but I would say that anyone seeking to destroy self-esteem ... or to have it destroyed ... is engaging in unhealthy behaviour ... and not in 'play' of any sort
<bondagebabe> it is getting to be a little more yummy now, though..lol
<dana^^> so agrees with you abi...
<DarkAngel^{a}> you cant say that `abi ,,,, between 2 concenting adults,, who are in a relationship
<dana^^> but why destroy someone's self esteem Sir?
<`abi> I just did DA ... the destruction of self-esteem is no more healthy than breaking limbs
<bondagebabe> there is that consenting thing again...lol
<shadoe> i'll give an example of an emotional landmine.. if you like?
<DarkAngel^{a}> if they are strong , in themselves and in their relationship ,,, AND that is thier kink ,,,
<Lucy> not sure why anyone would consent to having their self esteem diminished
<`abi> if they are strong ...then their self-esteem isn't being compromised
<motoki> goferit shadoe
<jewel`{F}> what is said or done during that humiliation scene that may have the demeaning or belittling impact, making the sub really down, i understand it can be what is wanted for the "rush", but during aftercare or once out of the scene, how would you reverse the effects?
<DarkAngel^{a}> LOL ,, it isnt for you `abi ,,, but I was very surprised when I did my research
<DarkAngel^{a}> that is exactly what they are looking for
<dana^^> good question jewel
<shadoe> hokay.. so let's assume that Himself has tied me to the bed.. naked .. and my mindset is in the "i'm ugly" stage
<shadoe> trust me, women go there in their heads
<`abi> then I think DA, that what you found is that not everyone engages in BDSM for healthy reasons ... that isn't exactly surprising
* Lucy thinks many women go tehre in their heads, not all
<DarkAngel^{a}> needle play is fine ,, of course ,,, done with skill and to the exact purpose being intended ,,, but of course 5000 needles are too much
* motoki agrees
<shadoe> and so he's paraded some people through, and i've survived it..
<shadoe> but during all this i start to doze off.. (it's a party.. it's getting late)
<bondagebabe> isn't it almost like saying something hurtful to someone when you are angry, and trying to take it back afterwards?
<shadoe> and then someone decides to up the bar of humiliation.. and touches
* motoki wishes she was at this party
<Lucy> that wouldn't be consensual, i don't think
<DarkAngel^{a}> cuckolding is an example of what you say `abi ,,,
<DarkAngel^{a}> but it is also something some enjoy
<shadoe> if i'm woken up to that.. that person stands a good chance of having his/her knickers rearranged
<motoki> lol
<shadoe> because of past "negative" history
<DarkAngel^{a}> not my cup-o-tea .... but to each thier own
<jewel`{F}> you going to do that while tied up shadoe?
<shadoe> which is what i mean when you need to do your research
<`abi> DA, what I am saying is that engaging in any behaviour which "harms" rather than "hurts" is contrary to safe, sane, consensual practice of BDSM
<shadoe> nope.. but Himself would suffer the haunts of hell after He untied me LOL
<motoki> maybe that's His kink, shadoe *g*
<jewel`{F}> then you go after the one that touched right?
<DarkAngel^{a}> I can agree to that `abi ,,, but you have to be careful deciding for others what hurts, and what harms ,,, the people involved make that distinction
* jewel`{F} wants tickets to that show
<shadoe> i rip apart the one that touched
<shadoe> so .. something that was meant as a well-meant humiliation.. can easily go awry
<`abi> I have no trouble *deciding* that the destruction of self-esteem is harmful DA
* Lucy agreess with abi
<Switcharoo4u> do some may find self-esteem diminishment refreshing if they have an abundance of self-esteem?
<shadoe> it needs to be very closely monitored
<DarkAngel^{a}> certainly `abi ,,, for you
<`abi> for anyone DA
<Lucy> i think there's a difference between an 'abundance' of self esteem and say arrogance or obnoxiousness...they're not the same at all
<DarkAngel^{a}> tearing down self esteem can be a scene
<`abi> I love to have my feet taken out from under me Switcharoo4u ... but in no way would I wish for anyone to encourage me to think less of myself
<DarkAngel^{a}> as long as the self esteem is built back up at the end
<motoki> arrogance often comes from lack of self-esteem anyway
<Lucy> exactly!
<Lucy> that's a good point DA...but if you're going to tear someone down you'd better know how to effectively build them back up
<bondagebabe> again, i will ask about how to do that...once something is said, how do you take it back?
<DarkAngel^{a}> as a Dom ,, I had a hard time using some forms of verbal humiliation in a past relationship ,,, words such as ugly, stupid
<bondagebabe> isn't it always in the back of your mind that someone said something hurtful to you?
<motoki> taking it back is fraught with error in my opinion - but moving on isn't
<sabrina{Mistiree`}> do you think people that engage in this play a lot tend to have high elf esteem to begin with?
<Lucy> i would hope so..but i also think there are many people who do so who probably shouldn't
<DarkAngel^{a}> bondagebabe ,,, that is up to the people involved ,,, and as shadoe said ,, research and knowing what you are doing
<bondagebabe> i don't have much experience in this...and not sure that i want to...lol
<DarkAngel^{a}> knowing who you are playing with ,,, knowing where the emotional land mines are
<Switcharoo4u> I can respect people who allow their self-esteem to be diminished - I do not think less of them.
<Lucy> DA, Sir...could you give us an example of how you might build someone back up after a scene where they are torn down in this manner?
<DarkAngel^{a}> Humiliation Edge Play can safely involve tearing down of self esteem
<DarkAngel^{a}> but ,, as I said ,, you have to ensure you build them back up
<shadoe> great point DA
<DarkAngel^{a}> this type of 'emotional beating' can be very catharcic (sp?)
<`abi> and that is the difference between hurt and harm
<motoki> i'd say that it's not possible to tear down one's self-esteem unless they are willing to have it torn down - i tend to get angry when anyone seems to be purposefully diminishing my own self-esteem
<DarkAngel^{a}> ok `abi ,, in that I agree with you ,, I just thought you were saying no way to that type of play
<motoki> but if i trust the Dominant, it becomes similar to being whipped really hard, only emotionally
<DarkAngel^{a}> trust is a very large part of Humiliation Play ,,,
<jewel`{F}> during aftercare would you use lots of positive reinforcement of your feelings for them?
<motoki> i'm still me even if i'm crying
<shadoe> i'd debate that one motoki
<motoki> which one?
<shadoe> my own mother had a way of shredding my self esteem.. and i sure wasn't willing
<DarkAngel^{a}> I dont suggest other than light, play, types of humiliation unless you are experianced with that person
<`abi> I am saying DA, that you have to understand the difference between 'play' and the harmful destruction of self-esteem ... and to do that you have to understand *what* you are doing and *why* you are doing it
<DarkAngel^{a}> Lucy ,, to answer your question ,,, telling someone hurtfull things ,, can be eased or built back up by showing them love, emotion, interest in their well being
<shadoe> so can we agree that the humiliation we are talking about, the submissive has willingly volunteered to go through?
<shareena> not always, imo DarkAngel^{a}
<DarkAngel^{a}> exactly `abi ,,, that is what I said
<Lucy> do you feel that can be done at teh end of a scene, or is it ongoing for a time after the scene?
<Lucy> i'd hope so shadoe...that they've consented in some way
<DarkAngel^{a}> an interogation scene is another example
<DarkAngel^{a}> aftercare Lucy
* Lucy gets all googly eyed at teh mention of interrogation scenes
<DarkAngel^{a}> which can take days
<motoki> i've never experienced an interrogation scene
<Lucy> thank you Sir
<dana^^> im wondering if there is a difference between being humiliated or embarassed as a lesson to learn and a prepared scene?
<DarkAngel^{a}> LOL ,, I dont do prepared scenes myself
<dana^^> well Ya know what im trying to say... grins...
<jewel`{F}> i think there is a big difference in being embarrassed and humiliated
<DarkAngel^{a}> berating someone ,, as part of a scene can be both humiliating and embaresing
<shadoe> who here has witnessed a full scene of humiliation?
<dana^^> and maybe not always excepted?
<Switcharoo4u> the problem is that when something is said, the one on the receiving end may always think that there was some truth at the root of it, even if they try to reverse the effects later...
<DarkAngel^{a}> but then again ,, I have dropped a cane or flogger ,, LOL ,, now that can be embarasing too
<dana^^> lol...
<bondagebabe> that is what i was trying to say, Switcharoo4u
<Switcharoo4u> blindfolds required for that DA
<Switcharoo4u> thanks.
<DarkAngel^{a}> can I ask a question ,,, who here has done humiliation play ?
<jewel`{F}> being teased can make one blush, but not be humiliating
<DarkAngel^{a}> and what types work for you
<krista-F> i find that is what happens to me......in the darkest hours of the nite....if im alone....those words can come back to haunt me
* Lucy is hard to humiliate so the answer is nope
<`abi> I will cheerfully blush and stand on one foot after a scene and sing "I'm a little teapot" ... but anyone calling me a 'disappointment' would be playing with emotional fire
<bondagebabe> me too, krista-F, even if the person doing the humiliating knows me very well...
<motoki> me too, abi
<dana^^> nods with krista...
<Kilted_One> I have heard that you have done that already abigaille
* Lucy agrees with abi
* `abi winks at KO
<DarkAngel^{a}> a wonderful performance ,,, critics raved
<DarkAngel^{a}> anyone else ?
<krista-F> Trainer Sir knows me better than anyone on earth.and knows how to get into my mind very well......but i can remember things he said to me .word for word....from years back
<`abi> ya well, the critics liked Troy too
<jewel`{F}> Master has teased me, pointed out things that i am embarrassed that He has noticed, He likes the reactions, but i don't think it is actually humilitaiton play
<dana^^> can remember the hurtful words of the last dom i was involved with... but that wasnt humiliation... just nastiness... lol
<DarkAngel^{a}> I have done a bit of Humiliation ,,, a few different forms ,, from playfull to edgier
<bondagebabe> does humiliating have to be cruel in order to work?
<bondagebabe> otherwise isn't it just embarrassment?
<krista-F> we were discussing this the other nite.....and he just knows what makes me uncomfortable......it comes from knowing each other a long time.....and as much as i hate it....at times.....i am drawn to his cruelty
<`abi> that depends on what you want it to achieve bondagebabe
<dana^^> it can make you step back and reflect on yourself...
<DarkAngel^{a}> tareena pipes up next to DA "the same 'hurtful words from someone you do not entirely trust, or trust in their feelings toward you have a completely different feeling as when you yourself trust in how one feels about you, that they love and care for you. You have to KNOW that.
<bondagebabe> that's what i thought...there has to be some known insecurity that the Dom can build on which can make it more cruel...
<jewel`{F}> agreed tareena next to DA
<shadoe> so then where's the appeal.. does the humiliation in the end make you more able to get over the insecurity?
* DarkAngel^{a} smacks tareena and sends her back under his desk to serve as his footstool again
<`abi> for me shadoe ... it serves to refocus
<DarkAngel^{a}> lighter humiliation ,,, can make you get the feel of the forbidden friut ,, like she is such a dirty little girl ,, such a slut (as in a freedom from society)
<bondagebabe> depends on who does it, and the trust, shadoe
<Switcharoo4u> again - what is the difference between embarrassment and humiliation (if any)?
<Lucy> good question...and i don't know how to answer it
<DarkAngel^{a}> also like forced exibitionism ,,, like having a sub wear see thru clothing at a Play Party ,, or go nude
<bondagebabe> to me embarrassment is a more temporary condition then humiliation
<`abi> it's like the difference between a submissive and slave ... the only difference is the one personally you associate with it
<bondagebabe> i agree abi...
<DarkAngel^{a}> embaresment can be humiliating ,,,
<Switcharoo4u> does embarrassment fade, but humiliation build up?
<DarkAngel^{a}> humiliation can be a whole heck of a lot more ,,, good and bad
<bondagebabe> good analogy Switcharoo4u...
<bondagebabe> is that an analogy?
<shadoe> okay.. i know i'm not supposed to do this until 10.. however. .night everyone!
<shadoe> :-)
<DarkAngel^{a}> night shadoe
<Switcharoo4u> as a side note - I love these forums and find them quite interesting and helpful.
<Switcharoo4u> *
<`abi> really Switcharoo4u? ...most of us just come here to humiliate ourselves ;:)
<krista-F> or have someone do it for us
<bondagebabe> can you humiliate yourself? there is a good concept....
<bondagebabe> what would we need a Dom for? lol
<Lucy> sure you can...i'm better at humiliating myself than any Dom ;)
<bondagebabe> i can embarrass myself...but humiliate? hmmmm
<dana^^> lol... especially when youre nervous... and ramble on and on..
<Switcharoo4u> you can just look at someone, say absolutely nothing, and they will almost always humiliate themselves.
<Switcharoo4u> or embarrass themselves rather.
<Lucy> sometimes just askign someone to turn around..over and over...can embarass them
<Lucy> :)
<Switcharoo4u> I wasn't embarrassed - but rather impressed.
<Lucy> so was i
<bondagebabe> lol...and i had a good laugh over it...
<Switcharoo4u> where is your mind?
<Switcharoo4u> in the gutter?
<Lucy> silly question ;)
<Switcharoo4u> that's what I like...lol
<Switcharoo4u> I find it interesting that I can get embarrassed for those when I witness others in humiliation play.
<Lucy> empathy is a good thing
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Switcharoo4u> I always just hope that there is always SSC Safe, Sane, and Consentual in control.
<Switcharoo4u> of the play that is.
<`abi> that's an interesting point Switcharoo4u ... I recently had someone tell me that she had trouble watching me scene because of all the 'humiliation'
<`abi> which I found very interesting since I don't experience it as humiliation at all
<Switcharoo4u> I think that it can build the character of all of those involved.
<jewel`{F}> your scenes are awesome to watch abi
<`abi> I think that sometimes we 'translate' to our own experience
<Lucy> or project
<`abi> yes Lucy .. that's a better word
<Switcharoo4u> I don't find some things humiliating that I once would have - and I like that to a point.
<`abi> for me, there is often a feeling of exhilaration, which comes from "god, I didn't think I'd be able to do that!" and knowing that I did
<Lucy> that i can relate to
<Switcharoo4u> But it is important to keep in mind that you may be "projecting" humiliation to others that are not consenting to it.
<`abi> well, then they don't have to watch Switcharoo4u
<Switcharoo4u> true.
<motoki> me too abi (re: exhilaration from "i didn't think i'd be able to do that")
* `abi holds the door open for ModBot
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Switcharoo4u> that is the development of character.