January 5, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

<Kilted_One> sure start away
* Kilted_One bangs the official starting gong
* DarkAngel^{rt} waves to the rest of the room he has missed ,,,, expecially before the bot shows up ,,, lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> damn ,, just got that in too
<Kilted_One> K I have a question for all the fem Dommes in the room <eg>
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I will happily start off the discussion
* Sweet1` states the obvious right off...and x and a y chromosome :)
<Kain> A male, as a dom, to me is natural. It is that which is right, and what makes a person usually feel the best and happiest. Female dominants, then, are similar to male dominants, in that they mimic the nature of man, and quite a lot of male dom traits.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> to the best of my recollection ,,, the Dom's have a dick (but not all - LOL) ,, and the Fem Dommes dont (although many do have just as good)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well you know Kain ,, I would dissagree with that
<Kilted_One> Kain so with that statement are you saying that males that are not dom are not natural
<Sweet1`> mimic?
<Kain> Lots do. :)
<shadoe{S}> i'm thinking dominance isnt gender biased..
<Kain> Insert for the most part, and yes.
<Kain> I am saying exactly that.
<Kain> Mimic...absorb..adopt...whatever you want to call it.
<earl{MS}> so this one is not natural?
<Sweet1`> so it is not natural for women to be dominant?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I would think that you have associated, ,,, naturally ,,,, your dominance with your male-hood ,,, but I think you have drawn a line that is a tad too much assumption based on only your own experiance
<Kain> For most women it is not.
<Kain> In my opinion, yes earl. I think by giving up your natural right of freedom, of holding virtues and beliefs, you have been emasculated, and thus, I cannot acknowledge you as a man.
<shadoe{S}> he's a plant, right?
<Kilted_One> are these "beliefs, or statements" based on any facts kain, or are they simply "your opinons"??
* Kilted_One thinks that is robert, shadoe <smiles>
<DarkAngel^{rt}> IMO ,, we each grow up with experiences ,,, and each of us wakes up to a realization of an inner need ,,, weather we are male or female is imaterial.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> if we follow our inner true self,,,, towards such arealization we are complete ,,,, but certainly not mimicing
<Kain> Yep. There's biological grounds for my beliefs. As well, it's the base, lowest level of instinctive attitude and behaviour for man and woman.
<Kain> The simplest, happiest way for most of us.
<Sweet1`> what are the biological grounds?
<Kain> I'm on painmeds from oral surgery, and I don't have medschool books.
* Kain grins
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I dissagree Kain ,,, the only biological portion I would agree with is that men, are biologically given a greater muscle mass than woman
<earl{MS}> the domination of one sex over the other is cultural not biological
<DarkAngel^{rt}> not a greater mental mass ,, nor a greater Dom/me mass
* Kilted_One wonders if Kain is not confusion strenth with dominance
<Kain> But our societies / cultures are not patriarchal.
<Kain> Well.
<Kain> You know, we might even have different view on the finer points of 'dominant' status too.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ahhh I think that be the case Kilted_One
<Kain> No, I'm not, Kilted.
<Kain> I'm not saying that a female has to submit to be happy either.
* Sweet1` is still wondering what the biological grounds are
<drauma{M}> Kain, why do you assume that earl is emasculated in all respects? I submit to my Lady MzTyger, but not to most others...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> so a question Kain ,,, do you think muscle mass ,, thus domaneering is better than dominance
<Kain> Hmmm...
<Kain> No.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well good
<Kain> I think for every woman there is a more dominant man, does that help?
<earl{MS}> no
<`abi> for every man there is a more dominant man too ... what's your point earl?
<`abi> sorry Kain
<Kain> uhh
<drauma{M}> as to muscle mass, I far outmuscle MzTyger, yet, ony when we are in a tickle fight does that matter
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ok,,, then dominance,,, which is not dependant upon domineering (muscle) is much more relivant for our lifestyle ?
<Kain> except, our genders complement eachother, abi.
<Kain> compliment
<`abi> complimenting genders have nothing to do with dominance Kain ... and arguably, same genders compliment one another equally well
<shadoe{S}> so.. there's nothing so much wrong with a woman that a man can't fix???
<Sweet1`> so male/male and female/felmale don't compliment each other?
* drauma{M} blinks
<star^dust{CMG}> What about poly relationships?
<earl{MS}> a tendency to dominance or submissiveness is not related to one's sex but to one's internal desires
<Kain> For the most part, in my opinion, yes.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> sexually I agree Kain ,, but only where the individual needs such complimentation ,,, they might seek other ,,, to complete them ,, thus our bi and gay friends fit in well within my vision of a lifestyle
<Kain> I disagree, earl. I think it's part and parcel to the neural pathways within our minds.
<Kain> To the intrinsic traits, base instinctive attitudes and behaviourism we hold.
* star^dust{CMG} wonders how you see a poly relationship working then
<drauma{M}> those neural pathways are influenced and developed by the hormones of puberty, as resent research is delving into
* Kain nods.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> behaviorism is a learned thing ,, you do not bring prooofs of your point yet Kain
<Kain> well, I did say I didn't have medschool books on hand, DA.
<drauma{M}> some behaviours are biological
<Kain> But too, your points aren't proven either.
<drauma{M}> the nuturing instinct has a hormonal basis
<shadoe{S}> i think the proof of the point is that Kain likes to be controversial, therefore attention getting
* Kain smiles.
<Sweet1`> why do you need medschool books?
<Kain> Don't be ridiculous, shadow. :)
<Kain> That's where the biological basis is located, Sweet1.
<Sweet1`> really?
<drauma{M}> really
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Mmm so you state you dont have proof ,, only unsubstantiated points that differ from the norm Kain ,,,, Mmmm alas ,, I dont understand you bringing such a view to a discussion unless you can discuss it then,,,
* Kain hrms.
<shadoe{S}> heh..it's a manipulative charactoristic - a domineering one..my mother used to practice it *s*
<DarkAngel^{rt}> unless of course you are just here to raise shit ,, LOL
* Sweet1` goes to get my books to find this basis
<Kain> Nahh, DA.
<Kain> I'm just sharing my beliefs.
<drauma{M}> sorry I missed Kains original points
<Sweet1`> which isn't in medschool books <g>
<Kain> I can't tell that, Sweet1. For all I know you're looking at "medschool for dummies".
<Sweet1`> perhaps you mean psychological books?
<Kain> hrmmmm.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Kain ,,, I know ,, thus visual evidence of some very fine Femme Dommes who act in a very completing thus IMO natural manner
<Kain> No, it's like..sociobiology or something.
<Sweet1`> lol, ok
<DarkAngel^{rt}> they complete and fulfill thier subs ,,, so I have personal evidence refuting your point
<`abi> okay ... so Kain's assertions aside ... I've heard people who say they don't care about the gender of the person wielding the flogger, the experience is the same for them ... does anyone have any comments in that regard?
<Kain> I believe in a natural order. That, when it comes down to it, a woman (this does not mean all women, but most) is best suited to defer to her husband, to be subservient to him - not necessarily submit, nor become "enslaved".
<Kain> That's cool, DA. I haven't said that all women are like that.
<shadoe{S}> so.. does anyone else have an opinion on the differences between male and female Dominants? Such as how they conduct themselves in a scene - etc?
<drauma{M}> I think you extrapolate Kain
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I am just curious ,,, and I am interested only in learning more if you do have interesting pointes that I could learn more
<drauma{M}> and I think you go too far
<earl{MS}> this one chooses to believe that because he enjoys pleasing his Mistress it does not make him less of a man
<`abi> that isn't natural order Kain, it's paternalistic culturalization and I think we're about 50 years past that
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I only say that Kilted_One from a person who first knows thier selves ,,, be they male or female
* mist{LW} has to chuckle as she pictures some of the Dommes being told they have to submit to a husband
<Kain> Ugh.
<Sweet1`> lol abi, i was going to say it seems Kain has been transported from the 50's
<Kain> What part of not necessarily submit or enslavement don't you understand?
* Kain winks
<drauma{M}> girls develop somwhat different neural interconectivity during puberty because fo the cylcing of their hormones, and the relative balance of things
<`abi> what part of paternalistic culturalization don't you understand Kain
<DarkAngel^{rt}> well back to the main discussion ,,, I know some Dommes who do have a very good sence of safety ,,, I have learned much from them
<drauma{M}> girls are more inclined towards discusion than agression, towards win-win solutions and cooperation
<jewel`{F}> there is always the religious belief as well that there is a God and that God greated everything in an order from bottom of the ladder working up to the top of the ladder ending with the most Dominant last, that being Woman
<shadoe{S}> i have found that Femme Doms are often inclined to indulge in ritual
* Kain nods to DA.
* Kilted_One must be a fem Domme then <winks>
<`abi> any thoughts on why shadoe{S}?
<drauma{M}> and, when hearing the sound of a child, or when touching one, a girls body produces certain hormones that encourage her to mother the child
<shadoe{S}> men stand back and "expect".. women are proactive and say "do it"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> perhaps jewel`{F} , but a heirarchial relationaship only exists within a relationship ,,, and is formed from the occupants ,, not based on pre-disposed assumptions on sex
<Kain> I disagree.
* jewel`{F} smiles to DA
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol ,,, shadoe{S} ,, that is not true from some of the friends I know ,,, perhaps anouther assumption
<Kain> I'm used to disagreeing with BDSMers, DA. It's great..although, when people get up in arms and get rude, I sometimes think about leaving.
<Kain> usually it's not worth it :)
<`abi> do we make different assumptions about differences?
<shadoe{S}> i don't assume DA.. it's only my observations of those i know
<DarkAngel^{rt}> why is sex a selective assumption on either Domminance or other things in life
<Kain> Hmmm.
* Kain ponders that
<shadoe{S}> i'm sure there are many variations
<DarkAngel^{rt}> are you not a BDSM'er Kain ?
<Kain> I am not, DA.
<Kilted_One> I think one of the problems that we are struggling with right now is 'stereo typing", there are a lot of different "people" out there that have a lot of different styles, hell mine changes scene by scene person by person, so I am hesitant to make any "general" comments on styles
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ahh ok Kain ,, perhaps you could illuminate us as to your basis ?... I am confused since the discussion is on a difference of Domm/mes
* Kain nods.
<Kain> I'm Gorean.
* Kain waits for it.
<_dove> Is Gorean not a form of BDSM?
<krista-F> not from this girl
<Kain> No, dove.
<Kilted_One> waits for what Kain??
<Sweet1`> some say yes, some say no
<Kain> The inevitable assault on Gor.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I know some very good Goreans Kain ,,, in fact my first exposure was when I started reading the John Norman novels at my mothers house (dont ask me why she had 1 to 14)
<_dove> i see...... i think of Gor as a form of D/s, hence part of BDSM
<kimi[SJ]> to each his own, Kain.
<Kilted_One> you wont get that in here sorry
<Kain> Really.
<Kain> That's great! :)
<drauma{M}> I perceive Gorean life as a form of BDSM
<shadoe{S}> then you are suggesting there are no female dominants in gor culture.. and you are 100% gor culture (as you present yourself tonight).. i wonder on what authority you base your opinions in a non gorean discussion?
* Kain smiles.
<Kain> I'm just discussing about femdoms and maledoms in general.
<Kilted_One> thinks that we should stay on topic and not get into a discussion on Gor at this point in time
* Kain nods to KO.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Gorean is BDSM Kain ,,, but assumption of "my version is more right than your version" ,,, is just juvinile ,,, no wonder you do not have proof for your points
<drauma{M}> you would have an argument from MzTyger, she has earned the respect of many in Gor, and is acknowledged as an independant free woman
* Kain winks at DA.
<shadoe{S}> but you've asserted there are no fem dommes in your opinion... only women who haven't met the right dominant male
<Kain> No.
<Kain> I have not said there are not female dommes.
<Kain> Stop putting words in my mouth.
<shadoe{S}> you have suggested they are unnatural
<shadoe{S}> that's hardly putting words in your mouth
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I agree Brother Kilted_One ,,, let us look at the differences between Male and Female Dom's
<shadoe{S}> it's what *i* am hearing
<Kain> I've said most women would be happier in the position of being 'bottom'ish or subservient.
<shadoe{S}> semantics.. it's saying the same thing
<Sweet1`> how can you speak for most women?
<abitbent> i doubt there is evidence to support that.. but an opinion in an opinion
* Kain smiles.
<drauma{M}> he can legitamtly state his perceptions of the women he has interacted with
<Kain> exactly.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> perhaps the discussion you now listen to might expand your view Kain ,, I always am happy when mine is
<drauma{M}> which is NOT most women
<`abi> which is completely meaningless to the women who wouldn't, making it an irrelevant point ... bottom and top does not have to do with gender
<shadoe{S}> but he can't state perceptions about women he hasn't met
* Kain considers.
<Kain> Like I said, I'm high on painmeds.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> how about play ,,, what differences do we see ?
<Kain> Hrmm.
<drauma{M}> expectatinos of stoicsm from male submissives
<Kain> Well, shadoe is right in one regard, since I'm not a BDSMer I can't really comment on some subjects.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I know I tend ,,, IMO to seek more visible and verbale feedback than some of the Femms I know
<Kilted_One> Kain my I ask if you have r/l experience of some form of D/s lifestyle??
<drauma{M}> are you a Gorean master Kain?
<Kain> I'm a Gorean man, drauma.
<Kain> "master" is but a perception for a slave. We are men first, masters second.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> can we ,, as Kilted_One asked ,, get back to point people
<drauma{M}> thre are submissive gorean men...
<Kain> No.
* Kilted_One and notes for the record that I also tout myself as being 'somewhat" Gorean
<Sweet1`> ok
* abitbent leaves... religion turns me off
* mist{LW} thinks that she has noticed that more Dommes tend to be into the mind fuck aspect of it, while the males tend towards more dealing out of the pain and pleasure
* Achilles{tr} denies any Gorean connection in spite of some Gorean Masters who have claimed otherwise. <grins>
<DarkAngel^{rt}> the best I personally know Kilted_One ,,, and I have read every book ,,, even the harder to read later ones
<Kain> Gorean men.
<Kain> To think of "Gorean masters" suggests you are a slave.
<shadoe{S}> i'd agree with that mist
<Kilted_One> sorry Kain was that a not to my question about experience r/l??
<Kain> Oops, sorry KO.
<Sweet1`> i've heard it said that femdommes are more visual, playing into the more visual aspects of the male sub
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I will say mist{LW} ,, that I have learned more of mind fucks from Female friends
<Kain> No, I don't have any D/s experience offline.
<Kain> Only Gorean.
* mist{LW} smiles
<mist{LW}> exactly Sweet1
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Mmm well lets specify here then
<Kilted_One> nods thanks Kain, maybe you could visit #Gorlite after the discussion and we can discuss Gor there
* Kain smiles.
<Kain> Certainly.
<mist{LW}> i wonder tho if part of that comes from the different expectations of male sub to those of a female sub
<DarkAngel^{rt}> for discussion ,, we are refering to the difference between R/L Male and Female Dom/mes
<Kilted_One> and or similarities too DA
<drauma{M}> are those expectations so different mist?
<mist{LW}> i think so, yes
<twilight_girl> what sort of different expectations mist?
<shadoe{S}> i think there's a world of difference between male and female subs,,, but that's a whole other topic
<Kilted_One> I think that we are all the same....we are all different
<shadoe{S}> i'd be interested to know what the male subs think are the differences between male and female dominants
<DarkAngel^{rt}> definetly Brother Kilted_One ,,, similarities definetly since I have learned very many lessons from some of my Lady frineds
<DarkAngel^{rt}> in fact ,,, to date ,, I have only leant my slave to 2 Dom's ... both were FemDommes
<Achilles{tr}> So, you are trying to identify common qualities in FemDommes.. common qualities in MaleDoms and then look for contrasts and similairites between those two sets of qualities? That's quite a job.
<Kain> I stuck my head under the gullotine by sharing my beliefs on Femdoms and maledoms.
<earl{MS}> think that male Doms are more sexually oriented than fem Doms
<drauma{M}> I see one difference that lies in biology, I expect a Domme to use a strap on, a Dom to use that which he was born with..other than that I se little difference
<drauma{M}> mmmm
<drauma{M}> perhaps Men are more willing than Females to be sexual
<`abi> oh, I think there are worlds of difference drauma, but they are more related to individuals than to genders
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I will venture the next guilotine then ,,, I have noticed ,, that Femmes do tend to demand obidience
<earl{MS}> agree
<`abi> there are a half dozen or so Dom/mes in channel ... is there any one quality that you can agree that you all have?
<shadoe{S}> that's no guillotine (how the heck do you spell that?) .. that's good thinking
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I should say immediate obidiance
<shadoe{S}> most fem subs are quite fine with obedience.. and most male subs
<Achilles{tr}> Hmmm, bullying perhaps?
* Kain rubs his brow, trying to defeat the damn pain meds dulling his mind because of his lost wisdom teeth.
<Kilted_One> that we all beat on innocent submissives male or female
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Mmmm no shadoe{S} , not exactly what I was thinking ,,, I dont as a Dom expect to be obeyed
<shadoe{S}> only if we ask nicely
<kimi[SJ]> who said we are innocent?
<drauma{M}> I requrie tolerance from anyone I submit to, the tolerance to understand a situation before being judgemental
<shadoe{S}> why not DA?
<drauma{M}> to such a Dominant, and only such a dominant I grant obediance
* Kain yawns.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> obidiance to their One certainly ,,, but obidience because I am a Dom ,,, nope ,, not me
<shadoe{S}> if i'm respected by my dominant.. and cared for and loved and all that other good stuff.. why shouldn't he expect me to obey?
<Kilted_One> I did kimi[SJ] <winks>.... oh you mean that is not a halo it is a floating collar???
* _dove agrees with DA
<DarkAngel^{rt}> in fact as a Host I try to defuse such people
<Achilles{tr}> Hmm, that's a good point DA. obedience is certainly something I expect from My girl but not from other subs. How do FemDommes feel on that point?
<drauma{M}> but, ther have beena few times when I felt a need to be bratty, while driving, when I knew the right way was not Her way...
<shadoe{S}> ack..okay DA .. i didn't realize you were talking carte blanche.. and no, i don't immediately jump for a dominant who isn't mine.. my Master tells me how i should behave with others
<shadoe{S}> then i follow those instructions
<DarkAngel^{rt}> LOL ,,, I recall the widely remembered a Male Dome who decided all fem subs needed to give him total obidiance at a London Munch ,,,, tsk tsk
<mist{LW}> lol
<Sweet1`> lol
<kimi[SJ]> SJ only expects me to obey him and be polite to other Doms.
<`abi> but, it would indeed seem that MaleDoms require obedience from their submissives much the same way that FemDommes do
<Sweet1`> male doms when spanking are deep thud...femdommes are stingier...lol
<mist{LW}> Master requires i am curteous to those who deserve such curtesy, but i am not to submit to anyone but Master unless He tells me to
<Kilted_One> he lasted about 10 mins if I remember DA??
<shadoe{S}> but they "expect" it abi.. they don't follow up and insist..
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I agree shadoe{S} ,,, and my slave folows my lead ,,,, but without a lead she has permission to de-nut
<shadoe{S}> fem dominants "follow up"
<Sweet1`> he got an eye-opener to real life?? lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> LOL ,, yes Kilted_One ,,, I took him asside and had a R/L chat with him
<Kain> Sorry to come in all fecked up on meds.
<mist{LW}> think Master also had chat outside with him lol
<Kain> I wish you all well. ;)
<mist{LW}> be well Kain
<Kilted_One> Sweet1` but can both not be achieved by both sexes...simply technique at the time
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I dont think sex has much to do with it ,,, many people find/discover their inner selves ,, and eventually find R/L outlets
<Sweet1`> perhaps KO, but there is a physical difference in size and delivery
<`abi> okay .... blindfolded .... how many submissives think they could tell whether they were being scened by a MaleDom or a FemmeDomme?
<mist{LW}> i could tell
<DarkAngel^{rt}> those who explore cyber (and I was one) still need to use thier minds as they enter a community)
<`abi> how mist?
<shadoe{S}> depends on the toy
<shadoe{S}> a whip would be hard to know
<Sweet1`> agreed shadoe
<mist{LW}> how hard they hit, or the way they spaced out the play
<mist{LW}> hands are softer when stroking
* Kilted_One thinks that DA should start a contest at the next DAL
<shadoe{S}> well certainly their hands would give it away
<drauma{M}> I have scened wiht three Domme, and no Dom, all three surprised me with hand and arm strength
<DarkAngel^{rt}> thining on the size ,, as well as the delivery points ,,,, I would say I am very respectfull of those Fem Dommes that I have watched and learned from ,,,, but that might be just my viewpoint from learning from them
<mist{LW}> am not meaning strength of the blows, i mean how fast/slow they build up
<drauma{M}> those of you who met me or saw me at kkbb know that I am not small
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol ,, what kind of contest Kilted_One ?
<Kilted_One> to determine if it is a Mor F dom
<DarkAngel^{rt}> LOL
* mist{LW} is thinking of three or four subbies, blindfolded and having to guess who was playing with them lol
<drauma{M}> hand size might be a clue
<mist{LW}> ten minute time limit lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> but Kilted_One ,,, you know I am not too stupid as to ailienate 1/2 of those who I might learn nasty things from
<drauma{M}> if fisting was on the agenda
<earl{MS}> think dick size would be a definite give away
<mist{LW}> even if i was wrong in guessing, it would be fun to try lol
<drauma{M}> it would be dificult to deal with the negotiatinos and the during play communications issues mist
<Kilted_One> really earl{MS}, I have met a few Lez Dommes that pack bigger that most males
<mist{LW}> not if the play was specified ahead of time
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol ,, that is cheating drauma{M} ,,, lol ,, one very very good friend ,, who actually stood with me for my collering ceremony vollunteered to mentor me in fisting ,,, MAINLY because she was experienced AND had a small fist ,,, not fair
<`abi> are there elemental differences in the way Male and Female Dom/mes communicate?
<drauma{M}> people that normally play together would be best mist
<Achilles{tr}> Are FemDommes more 'service' oriented? Requiring more training fo subs to meet their needs perhaps?
<krista-F> the one Domme this one has played with a few times does NOT hit like a girl...
<Sweet1`> small fists aren't needed for fisting <g>
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that has been my view as well Achilles{tr} ,,,, and one point that I have strived to learn more of
<DarkAngel^{rt}> true Sweet1` ,,, but it helps with an eager but nervous sub who has an innexperienced Master with big ones
<Achilles{tr}> Difficult to draw conclusions but interesting to discuss views.
<Kilted_One> I guess an obvious difference is how a scene would be set up by a M or F Dom and this would be dependant on sex of submissives as well
<drauma{M}> i know the several Dommes I ahve interacted with have an abhorance of the common male DOm practice of demanding felatio service
<Achilles{tr}> Oh KO? How is that obvious?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ok ,, how about a new question
<`abi> I have seen that issue raised before drauma ... that perhaps Maledoms are more inclined to highly value sexual submission than FemmeDommes
<drauma{M}> the usual height difference is an issue in play with me
<emmy{B`L}> hello
<Kilted_One> well if the submissive is male there could be CBT and not if the submissive was female that sort of different, Achilles
<DarkAngel^{rt}> many Fem Dommes I see get deeper into the edge than the majority of Male Doms I see ,,, ok ,, CBT asside ,, why might that be?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> please elaborate drauma{M} ,,, do you mean that they do not like the males demanding oral service ?
<Kilted_One> and as the converstation earlier elueded to the fact that fisting could be set up if the submissive was female...and god help the male submissive if fisting is intended <EG>
<Achilles{tr}> Ah, I see KO. Techniques which are physically determined by the sub's requirements/abilities rather than by the Dominant's preferences or abilites. Gotcha.
<drauma{M}> a wise male submissive is prepared
<mist{LW}> anal fisting is possible for males and females tho lol
<Kilted_One> nods at Achilles last comment
<mist{LW}> althought i havent had it done to me lol
<DarkAngel^{rt}> true ,, and I will take off my watch for either
* abitbent wonders if the preaching has stopped
<drauma{M}> DA, my Lady and others have more than once expressed the view that 'on your knees whench' is NOT the best initial greeting
<abitbent> lol
<`abi> depends on who is greeting you drauma{M} :)
<Father_John> not yet abitbent
* Father_John chuckles
<drauma{M}> also, that oral gratitude should not be the norm
<_dove> If that is the Dominant's pleasure drauma{M}, (male or female), then so be it, no?
<`abi> but i think he makes a good point dove ... it does seem to be a point on which male and female Dom/mes commonly differ
<drauma{M}> to a stranger who happens to be submissive?
* Kilted_One thinks that there is only mins left for last min comments??
<DarkAngel^{rt}> in a sence drauma{M} ,,, it depends upon how the Dom/me wishes their sub to searve ,,, I know some of the absolutely errotic scenes I have seen involved a sub kissing his or her Top's feet in appreciation of the recieved play\
<earl{MS}> from the above discussion can see not signifigant differences between male and fem Doms
<drauma{M}> that is not between strangers, and is presumably well negotiated
<shadoe{S}> i still personally think a dominant personality has nothing to do with gender
<_dove> i agree with shadoe....... to me Dominant and/or submissive are not gender-specific
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I think the discussion DEFINETLY difers if we look at subs and Dom/mes not their own ,,, but to their Dom/mes ,,,, it is between the two ,, and many forms of gratitude are evident
<`abi> I agree shadoe .... although I do believe there are some elemental differences in the way the dominance is expressed